2019 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 06 - 08

[strad]

I understand your points and you have every right to your opinions. However I feel that in the Schumacher era it would have ended in tears and everyone would have cheered Michael.

[izzy]

My fingers are crossed that you are correct about all of the above! I admit to becoming a bit jaded by Vettel's driving in post V8 era, among a few other things in F1 over the last several years. Hopefully Ferrari can put solidify their hold on second place in the WCC this year, barring a complete implosion of Max and the Mercs a lot of tracks may be tough to compete at the level they've competed in Spa and Monza this year. Plus Charles can't carry Ferrari even if he looks like he can more or less handle the pressure and deliver wins, they need someone else that can deliver consistently and perhaps less dramatically like you said 80 points thrown away each year.

Charles can 'carry' Ferrari i think, in the sense that now they know they have all the pieces of the puzzle and they just need an equal car not a better one. He's only 21 but making only the odd mistake already, he has charisma, speaks great Italian, looking faster and faster, that bit ruthless we see, and is hot af He will really motivate them, just like when Lewis moved down the pitlane to Mercedes the whole media circus moved with him and the team lit up, and Max of course has the same effect at Red Bull. So at last Ferrari can recover from Mattiacci insanely dumping Fernando.

Tho yes the second driver is a question, they ought to snap up Valtteri for 2021 while the going's good, this race showed he's No1 wingman as well didn't it.

[izzy]

I understand your points and you have every right to your opinions. However I feel that in the Schumacher era it would have ended in tears and everyone would have cheered Michael.

Schumi would only have put half of Lewis' outside tyres on the grass and the stewards wouldn't have done anything

But seriously Lewis was 100% correct to apply that pressure: either Charles got a bad line in and exit, or he got a warning which inhibits him for the rest of the race. And also now there's a topic about Charles' driving which will inhibit him in future races. Eventually even Nico Rosberg started getting penalties.

[GPR-A]

So true! I'll be honest my disappointment in Ferrari's season led to me sort of writing off the success at the last two races. As happy as Ferrari must be I assume they're still disappointed that they should have won at few races in the first half of the season and that it's taken so long to break the duck.

It was a huge weekend for Ferrari because it tells them they can take on Lewis doesn't it, next year (this year was gone really as soon as the Mk2 Merc appeared in winter testing). The last two championships have been won with the driving haven't they: 80 points each year thrown away by one driver and not the other. Lewis applying the pressure and Seb feeling it. But now Charles IS the real deal, and Ferrari know how to how do the downforce, even if this year they got out-thought by Mercedes again (racing the tyre sensors in Abu Dhabi so they could test with them).

Plus the signs are Mattia is managing to change to a more Red Bull/ Mercedes type of culture, I'd say, and now generally Ferrari is probably quite a happy place atm. They'll be looking forward to next year.

It's not as simple as racing a tyre sensor and that gives a lasting advantage. From 2018 to 2019, the downforce levels were to be changing dramatically and using a 2018 spec car to test the 2019 tyres and then to build a car, is a completely different and complicated effort.

The place where Mercedes out thought Ferrari is when they decided to build a car with loads of downforce, even if that was coming at the expense of increased drag. To beat that extra drag, they focused on making the PU more reliable in race mode where they could run more aggressive engine modes. This was required to beat the drag that the new downforce was bringing (needless to say the parachute rear wing). They wanted to bolt as much downforce as possible to ensure the tyres work well, which they rightly thought was going to be most critical parameter for overall performance. Bingo! They arrived with a car that worked it's tyres well and Ferrari didn't realize the importance of bolting downforce and they came with a car that was less draggy (due to reduced downforce) was is good in straight line, but critically, missed out on tyre performance.

IMHO, that forward looking approach was the key for Mercedes' strong race pace. Red Bull got outfoxed by Honda's incredible improvement as they had built a low downforce car, purposefully due to the assumption that, Red Bull PU might not be powerful enough. Once they saw what Honda brought, they were quick to improve the chassis. Unfortunately, as usual, Ferrari did not respond throughout the season quite fast. The result is, RB is the second best car on downforce dominant circuits.

[izzy]

It's not as simple as racing a tyre sensor and that gives a lasting advantage. From 2018 to 2019, the downforce levels were to be changing dramatically and using a 2018 spec car to test the 2019 tyres and then to build a car, is a completely different and complicated effort.

The place where Mercedes out thought Ferrari is when they decided to build a car with loads of downforce, even if that was coming at the expense of increased drag. To beat that extra drag, they focused on making the PU more reliable in race mode where they could run more aggressive engine modes. This was required to beat the drag that the new downforce was bringing (needless to say the parachute rear wing). They wanted to bolt as much downforce as possible to ensure the tyres work well, which they rightly thought was going to be most critical parameter for overall performance. Bingo! They arrived with a car that worked it's tyres well and Ferrari didn't realize the importance of bolting downforce and they came with a car that was less draggy (due to reduced downforce) was is good in straight line, but critically, missed out on tyre performance.

IMHO, that forward looking approach was the key for Mercedes' strong race pace. Red Bull got outfoxed by Honda's incredible improvement as they had built a low downforce car, purposefully due to the assumption that, Red Bull PU might not be powerful enough. Once they saw what Honda brought, they were quick to improve the chassis. Unfortunately, as usual, Ferrari did not respond throughout the season quite fast. The result is, RB is the second best car on downforce dominant circuits.

Well okay of course i was simplifying but why do you think the Mercedes car was so late? They found out late, in the end of season tyre test, that the tyres need loads of load. I see what you mean about the power and yes RBR but would HPP not have worried about race power otherwise? They always want power.

But with whatever steps, they sacrificed this race, Monza, on that data, that they cunningly planned to get. This is what clever Mattia knows he's up against.

[Big Tea]

I think some are looking at the two passed GP and jumping to conclusions.
Yes the Ferrari engine has unbelievable power, but tracks are far more than straights.
The two where Ferrari were expected to win, they did. Good for Ferrari and their fans and board, but not so bad for Merc either. ( leaving RBR out for the moment )

I am sure if Merc were offered superiority on 12-15 tracks or parity on 2-4 they would not even have to consider their options.
Taking nothing from Ferrari or LeClerc, these were the races they targeted and they got the job done, but look at Renault. Do people have high expectations for the rest of the season because they performed so well this week? at look at them and say 'well, good engine, but airo was not important here'

[GPR-A]

Well okay of course i was simplifying but why do you think the Mercedes car was so late? They found out late, in the end of season tyre test, that the tyres need loads of load. I see what you mean about the power and yes RBR but would HPP not have worried about race power otherwise? They always want power.

But with whatever steps, they sacrificed this race, Monza, on that data, that they cunningly planned to get. This is what clever Mattia knows he's up against.

It's now more a common knowledge that, the Spec 1 that was tested in the first test of Winter Testing, was something that was signed off in November'18. The Spec 2 that came in second test, was the result of the work done until end of Jan. It's not that they learnt about anything in First test and reacted for second test. It was always a plan to go that way. The thing that worried Mercedes was, the Spec 2 wasn't performing as well as they had hoped for in the first 2 days of second test. But from Day 3 onwards, it started going in the right direction and on Day 4, they were happy to see where the car was.

If you personally ask Mattia, he would be happy to have a Mercedes like car, than the one they have and would be happy to win championship than simply win a race at Monza. He wasn't cunning, he is helpless.

[siskue2005]

People want hard racing? yes!
This is hard racing into the same corner!

and This is hard racing into the same corner!


and This is hard racing into the same corner!


and this NOT hard racing, but moving under braking


I have never seen someone move so much under braking into that corner and the funny part is everyone are hailing him as the second coming of f1 god and not even condeming his actions! The new era of f1 drivers are from the sim racing era so we can expect this.

[SiLo]

The last time someone did that and the person on the outside didn't move, there was a crash. Hamilton should know, he did it to Kobayashi back in Spa in 2011 at the end of the Kemmel Straight.

Hamilton got real luck here, he was saved by the curb on the outside offering up some much needed grip. If there was no curb there I think he might have spun into the wall.

[siskue2005]

The last time someone did that and the person on the outside didn't move, there was a crash. Hamilton should know, he did it to Kobayashi back in Spa in 2011 at the end of the Kemmel Straight.

Spa 2011, Lewis said he didnt see the car there, he thought Kobayashi was not there...it was a genuine mistake and he paid with a DNF from his side..

Hamilton got real luck here, he was saved by the curb on the outside offering up some much needed grip. If there was no curb there I think he might have spun into the wall.

If so Bottas would have won the race

[santos]

I have never seen someone move so much under braking into that corner and the funny part is everyone are hailing him as the second coming of f1 god and not even condeming his actions! The new era of f1 drivers are from the sim racing era so we can expect this.

Some say that Max is the best, the GOAT... never heard about moving under braking before he arrived at F1.
"The new era of f1 drivers are from the sim racing era so we can expect this." Jacques Villeneuve, is that you?

[siskue2005]

I have never seen someone move so much under braking into that corner and the funny part is everyone are hailing him as the second coming of f1 god and not even condeming his actions! The new era of f1 drivers are from the sim racing era so we can expect this.

Some say that Max is the best, the GOAT... never heard about moving under braking before he arrived at F1.
"The new era of f1 drivers are from the sim racing era so we can expect this." Jacques Villeneuve, is that you?

lol, i got that insight from his comment and i think there is some truth to it

[izzy]

Well okay of course i was simplifying but why do you think the Mercedes car was so late? They found out late, in the end of season tyre test, that the tyres need loads of load. I see what you mean about the power and yes RBR but would HPP not have worried about race power otherwise? They always want power.

But with whatever steps, they sacrificed this race, Monza, on that data, that they cunningly planned to get. This is what clever Mattia knows he's up against.

It's now more a common knowledge that, the Spec 1 that was tested in the first test of Winter Testing, was something that was signed off in November'18. The Spec 2 that came in second test, was the result of the work done until end of Jan. It's not that they learnt about anything in First test and reacted for second test. It was always a plan to go that way. The thing that worried Mercedes was, the Spec 2 wasn't performing as well as they had hoped for in the first 2 days of second test. But from Day 3 onwards, it started going in the right direction and on Day 4, they were happy to see where the car was.

If you personally ask Mattia, he would be happy to have a Mercedes like car, than the one they have and would be happy to win championship than simply win a race at Monza. He wasn't cunning, he is helpless.

There were 3 months between the tyre test and the second Barcelona test, and the Mk2 was all very last minute, and Mercedes ran extra sensors in the last 2018 race so they were allowed to run them in the tyre test. These are good solid dots to join don't you think?

Yes Mattia would have loved to have a high downforce car now, but Mercedes out-thought him, is my simple point. They planned to get the tyre data and reacted, while Ferrari, without so much data, went the wrong way. That's what the timeline says. Mercedes were making the Mk2 parts in March. And this Monza race showed it all working as that played out didn't it. And Spa. Ferrari won these races but will lose the season.

But Mattia is clever and so next year it should be different, but Mercedes will be trying to move the goalposts on again... so this is why the race was important, as well as the Seb/Charles swing, because at Ferrari's best race it kind of went to plan but Mercedes were 2,3 and the reason for this picture is basically clear thinking, same as with the 2014 power unit.

[rogazilla]

I have been waiting for this to turn into a debate with graphs (frame by frame analysis) and videos like we had in Austria for Max's move on LeClerc. Guess people don't have the same enthusiasm when Max is not involved.

[Just_a_fan]

It doesn't need frame by frame. The frontal view covering the braking zone shows Leclerc move over on to Hamilton. Clear as day.