2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

[Mamba]

Was it not worth trashing that PU to win the race though?

And take a engine penalty later on when they just might need two cars again to get a win?

[dans79]

What if Ferrari hadn't swapped Vettel and Leclerc back - would Vettel have taken the car back to the pits thus leaving Leclerc the win?

Vettel himself said he lost the MGU-K - it is possible to finish the race without it (see RIC at Monaco)
IIRC the team advised him to come back to the pits, instead he parked the car in a run-off area (later claiming that he put it there because he thought there wouldn't be an SC because of it).

Ultimately Vettel's decision to prioritize damage limitation of his PU over the team's success lead to the Mercedes 1-2...

There's no way to tell whether Vettel was actually the faster driver btw, maybe Charles could have opened a bigger gap? Looking at laptimes whilst one car is in dirty air is obviously not representative.

What a load of rubbish. Vettel was first instructed to box after K failure, then was told seconds later to "STOP NOW", and he did. This was broadcast on the main feed so I dont know which race you were watching, and imediately sets you off as being ignorant on the matter.
Yes, races can be finished without the K, but you would be last in in 10-15 laps on track like russia, so not worth doing. It's also more than likely other engine componenets were at risk, which is why they they told vettel to stop at once on track.

Vettel was 4,5s ahead before leclerc pitstop, and that's including vettel losing 0.5s lapping kubica. Only ignorant people would claim leclerc was faster in first stint.

Was it not worth trashing that PU to win the race though?

I felt all season that Ferrari have been pushing their components harder than Mercedes. I assume, they don't want to take pu related penalties, because that would cast doubt on what their true pace is!

[Juzh]

What if Ferrari hadn't swapped Vettel and Leclerc back - would Vettel have taken the car back to the pits thus leaving Leclerc the win?

Vettel himself said he lost the MGU-K - it is possible to finish the race without it (see RIC at Monaco)
IIRC the team advised him to come back to the pits, instead he parked the car in a run-off area (later claiming that he put it there because he thought there wouldn't be an SC because of it).

Ultimately Vettel's decision to prioritize damage limitation of his PU over the team's success lead to the Mercedes 1-2...

There's no way to tell whether Vettel was actually the faster driver btw, maybe Charles could have opened a bigger gap? Looking at laptimes whilst one car is in dirty air is obviously not representative.

What a load of rubbish. Vettel was first instructed to box after K failure, then was told seconds later to "STOP NOW", and he did. This was broadcast on the main feed so I dont know which race you were watching, and imediately sets you off as being ignorant on the matter.
Yes, races can be finished without the K, but you would be last in in 10-15 laps on track like russia, so not worth doing. It's also more than likely other engine componenets were at risk, which is why they they told vettel to stop at once on track.

Vettel was 4,5s ahead before leclerc pitstop, and that's including vettel losing 0.5s lapping kubica. Only ignorant people would claim leclerc was faster in first stint.

Was it not worth trashing that PU to win the race though?

In my opinion, it was worth it, even if win was not tottaly guaranteed at that stage yet.

[selvam_e2002]

Why did Vettel hit Webber, why did Rosberg hit Hamilton, why did Prost/Senna hit each other, why did Schumi hit...... everyone he hit. At some point stress, pressure and wanting to win combine to usually create cars coming together. It would make sense that at some point Vettel is fighting wheel to wheel and feels like he can win a race, or beat Leclerc in the championship and maybe to the title and that at that time he'll make a mistake and push to far or do something deliberately in the heat of the moment. To deny these things happen when we have ample evidence of it is kind of crazy.

Does that mean Vettel will hit Leclerc, no, or that if he hits him it was intentional rather than hard driving gone wrong, no. But the chances of them tangling as the pressure ramps up and Vettel at some point feels the need to race harder than he should is more likely than not imo.

Look back at Vettel's history, he is the youngest WDC and at that time everyone praised him. He is super fast.

If I remember correctly, he beats Lecrec in qualy and race till canada. In canada he said over radio that "he will not kill Lecrec's" qualifying. After that incident he is not performing well in qualy.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying he was ahead in the qualifying battle and points or that you think he beat Leclerc in all races and qualifying till Canada? Because in Australia the team held Leclerc back from passing Vettel as he caught him and had much better pace with like 1/3rd of the race to go maybe. He got Ferrari's first pole in Bahrain and was on for the win before the failure. He was 2/100ths behind Vettel in China qualifying, and quite a bit faster in Q1 (6/10ths) and first runs in Q2 in Baku before screwing it up, etc.

Vettel was also pushed ahead in the race in China and then they kept Leclerc out. Vettel had more points and was doing okay but we're talking about a much much less experienced driver, with the first time having a car anywhere near that performance level and he outqualified Vettel in the second race and was a good margin faster than Vettel before Vettel spun in Bahrain. Leclerc looked faster in Baku, and Monaco but mistakes were made in both that ended up with Vettel behind. In raw pace and qualifying Leclerc has looked faster really since Bahrain.

In terms of moving/retiring. Again 30mil is 30mil, he has a contract for next year. If you're going to retire why on earth wouldn't you take that final 30mil and honestly why on earth would RBR offer him a contract at this stage. If he can get 30mil and intends to retire soon why accept half that or less from RBR for a single season when he can just take the pay day before retiring from Ferrari? I can't really see any reason for him to leave or any viable options for him to leave to for next year.

After watching Sochi F1 race, my thoughts are right. Ferrari playing dirty politics. They are not in the hunt for WDC at all why they need to switch the position in lap 3 itself? Now they lost a car and lost 2nd place as well in the race. Worst team management. Is lecrec worth for it? why they are blinding supporting Lecrec?

If they do like this, even with good car they cannot win the both WCC and WDC.

AS I said, Vettel will leave Ferrari by end of this year. He won't race ferrari in 2020. I am 100% confident.

Not sure who they will replace with it. Hulk? then no chance till 2024. Forgot WDC and WCC for next 6 years.

[NathanOlder]

Was it not worth trashing that PU to win the race though?

And take a engine penalty later on when they just might need two cars again to get a win?

Well at the time, it cost them a win today. Today is more important than a future race they have no idea about.

[3jawchuck]

... AS I said, Vettel will leave Ferrari by end of this year. He won't race ferrari in 2020. I am 100% confident....

He's under contract though. Won't breaking it just open up financial and legal problems for him?

[Restomaniac]

I don't even know what he told.

That it wasn’t done to give LeClerc the lead.

LeClerc still looked awfully unhappy in interviews though. Clearly he is happy with his team and has tons of confidence in them

In this case, yes, I don't believe in those words. Clearly an attempt to not heat things up medially. It was obvious that they waited for the gap to be big enough to pit Vettel. He was losing big chunks of time to Hamilton, but they still waited until the gap between Vettel and Leclerc was at about 24.5 seconds.

So the Ferrari team principle IS lying as was Vettel’s chief engineer over the radio or did you miss that too? LeClerc wasn’t peed off before hand though!

[Restomaniac]

The faster car last week was LeClerc however Ferrari had no problems screwing him over.

This topic has been well discussed already. They way things panned out meant Vettel benefitted massively by a combination of fresh tyres, and great outlap and old worn tyres on Leclerc. If Ferrari continue to act they way they did today, they still won't win a championship. Engineering swaps is not on and in the end fate let them pay for it. They need to back the faster driver. If it was Charles in the second stint, then let him by. Secure the win at all cost.

So when if favours 1 driver it’s ok but when it favours another it’s not. Yep Gotcha!

[drunkf1fan]

The issue here is Vettel was the faster car at that point. Even if a swap was agreed they would be throwing away a possible win. What if after their engineered swap Vettel again proved to be slightly faster? Would they then focus on the win and ask for another swap or let them race? Why not let them race at the start? This will cost Ferrari dearly soon if they don't clip Leclerc's wings. Especially now that it seems on Race day Seb is a possible match after the upgrade package.

Ferrari need to back the faster driver on any given day - no matter if it is no 5 or 16. If it were not for the failure of Seb's engine and George's brakes they could still have conceded a win had Seb still been the faster car and they'd let them race with soft tyred Mercs coming...

Race pace isn't easy read like that. As someone said Leclerc was only 1.5 down after 8 laps while waiting to be let through. Just because someone drops back doesn't mean they are slower, it means they have different plans. With Hamilton often he'll start a stint slowly then come on hard, other drivers go the other way. Vettel was being told to give the position back but then would throw in a fastest lap pushing, Vettel could be using engine modes he wasn't supposed to be using or using extra fuel and would have had to go slower later in the race.

He 'seemed' faster, that doesnt' mean he actually was faster.

As for faster since the upgrade, again there's zero evidence of that. Literally no evidence in qualifying and in the races once Vettel was ahead Leclerc already knows he has no chance to race in Singapore. Either he's getting let ahead or he's P2 so there is no reason for him to match him. But regardless drivers have always had stronger or weaker tracks. Leclerc for all we know was unwilling to attack or risk their cars by racing normally and may have been told flatly by the team that they aren't allowed to do wheel to wheel racing. There are far too many possibilities to claim who was faster or not. Really the only time you see genuine pace of cars is when they are in fighting range of other drivers and are catching up.

IE if Hamilton is first, Leclerc is 5 seconds back and Bottas is 10 seconds back from him and unable to catch we can assume that Bottas can't catch or match the pace, but we can't say conversely that Hamilton can't go even faster if he has a gap he's comfortable with.

Leclerc likely not being allowed to race Vettel hard and only needing to stay ahead of Hamilton, may simply be going only as fast as he needs to.

Also we don't know that had Vettel/Leclerc switched on say lap 3, that Leclerc wouldn't have gone off into the distance faster than Vettel could. All we actually can tell is, Vettel and Leclerc had a deal to manage the start of the race, Vettel got ahead and refused to give up the position and created an issue in the team, his car failed, teh VSC probably had little effect as Russell's car failure would likely have had the same effect a few laps later anyway. Leclerc may have gotten second place if he stayed on the mediums as much because Bottas isn't a strong overtaker and Leclerc had the straight line speed but for me the win still wouldn't have been on. If he couldn't pass Bottas on softs I don't think he'd have passed Hamilton on the mediums either.

[NathanOlder]

What a load of rubbish. Vettel was first instructed to box after K failure, then was told seconds later to "STOP NOW", and he did. This was broadcast on the main feed so I dont know which race you were watching, and imediately sets you off as being ignorant on the matter.
Yes, races can be finished without the K, but you would be last in in 10-15 laps on track like russia, so not worth doing. It's also more than likely other engine componenets were at risk, which is why they they told vettel to stop at once on track.

Vettel was 4,5s ahead before leclerc pitstop, and that's including vettel losing 0.5s lapping kubica. Only ignorant people would claim leclerc was faster in first stint.

Was it not worth trashing that PU to win the race though?

In my opinion, it was worth it, even if win was not tottaly guaranteed at that stage yet.

totally agree, plus its not like he was far from the pits. he stopped his car 300m before the pitlane!!!!

[Bill_Kar]

The issue here is Vettel was the faster car at that point. Even if a swap was agreed they would be throwing away a possible win. What if after their engineered swap Vettel again proved to be slightly faster? Would they then focus on the win and ask for another swap or let them race? Why not let them race at the start? This will cost Ferrari dearly soon if they don't clip Leclerc's wings. Especially now that it seems on Race day Seb is a possible match after the upgrade package.

Ferrari need to back the faster driver on any given day - no matter if it is no 5 or 16. If it were not for the failure of Seb's engine and George's brakes they could still have conceded a win had Seb still been the faster car and they'd let them race with soft tyred Mercs coming...

Race pace isn't easy read like that. As someone said Leclerc was only 1.5 down after 8 laps while waiting to be let through. Just because someone drops back doesn't mean they are slower, it means they have different plans. With Hamilton often he'll start a stint slowly then come on hard, other drivers go the other way. Vettel was being told to give the position back but then would throw in a fastest lap pushing, Vettel could be using engine modes he wasn't supposed to be using or using extra fuel and would have had to go slower later in the race.

He 'seemed' faster, that doesnt' mean he actually was faster.

As for faster since the upgrade, again there's zero evidence of that. Literally no evidence in qualifying and in the races once Vettel was ahead Leclerc already knows he has no chance to race in Singapore. Either he's getting let ahead or he's P2 so there is no reason for him to match him. But regardless drivers have always had stronger or weaker tracks. Leclerc for all we know was unwilling to attack or risk their cars by racing normally and may have been told flatly by the team that they aren't allowed to do wheel to wheel racing. There are far too many possibilities to claim who was faster or not. Really the only time you see genuine pace of cars is when they are in fighting range of other drivers and are catching up.

IE if Hamilton is first, Leclerc is 5 seconds back and Bottas is 10 seconds back from him and unable to catch we can assume that Bottas can't catch or match the pace, but we can't say conversely that Hamilton can't go even faster if he has a gap he's comfortable with.

Leclerc likely not being allowed to race Vettel hard and only needing to stay ahead of Hamilton, may simply be going only as fast as he needs to.

Also we don't know that had Vettel/Leclerc switched on say lap 3, that Leclerc wouldn't have gone off into the distance faster than Vettel could. All we actually can tell is, Vettel and Leclerc had a deal to manage the start of the race, Vettel got ahead and refused to give up the position and created an issue in the team, his car failed, teh VSC probably had little effect as Russell's car failure would likely have had the same effect a few laps later anyway. Leclerc may have gotten second place if he stayed on the mediums as much because Bottas isn't a strong overtaker and Leclerc had the straight line speed but for me the win still wouldn't have been on. If he couldn't pass Bottas on softs I don't think he'd have passed Hamilton on the mediums either.

Classy post, glad someone mentioned this aspect as well

[Restomaniac]

Currently there is no point in this internal fight as the WCC and WDC are gone.
Ferrari are just building up problems for next season by not lancing this boil. Vettel is playing the same rule book as he did against Webber the key difference is that his car isn’t massively clear of everything else as it was back then.

[Mamba]

Race pace isn't easy read like that. As someone said Leclerc was only 1.5 down after 8 laps while waiting to be let through. Just because someone drops back doesn't mean they are slower, it means they have different plans. With Hamilton often he'll start a stint slowly then come on hard, other drivers go the other way. Vettel was being told to give the position back but then would throw in a fastest lap pushing, Vettel could be using engine modes he wasn't supposed to be using or using extra fuel and would have had to go slower later in the race.

He 'seemed' faster, that doesnt' mean he actually was faster.

As for faster since the upgrade, again there's zero evidence of that. Literally no evidence in qualifying and in the races once Vettel was ahead Leclerc already knows he has no chance to race in Singapore. Either he's getting let ahead or he's P2 so there is no reason for him to match him. But regardless drivers have always had stronger or weaker tracks. Leclerc for all we know was unwilling to attack or risk their cars by racing normally and may have been told flatly by the team that they aren't allowed to do wheel to wheel racing. There are far too many possibilities to claim who was faster or not. Really the only time you see genuine pace of cars is when they are in fighting range of other drivers and are catching up.

IE if Hamilton is first, Leclerc is 5 seconds back and Bottas is 10 seconds back from him and unable to catch we can assume that Bottas can't catch or match the pace, but we can't say conversely that Hamilton can't go even faster if he has a gap he's comfortable with.

Leclerc likely not being allowed to race Vettel hard and only needing to stay ahead of Hamilton, may simply be going only as fast as he needs to.

Also we don't know that had Vettel/Leclerc switched on say lap 3, that Leclerc wouldn't have gone off into the distance faster than Vettel could. All we actually can tell is, Vettel and Leclerc had a deal to manage the start of the race, Vettel got ahead and refused to give up the position and created an issue in the team, his car failed, teh VSC probably had little effect as Russell's car failure would likely have had the same effect a few laps later anyway. Leclerc may have gotten second place if he stayed on the mediums as much because Bottas isn't a strong overtaker and Leclerc had the straight line speed but for me the win still wouldn't have been on. If he couldn't pass Bottas on softs I don't think he'd have passed Hamilton on the mediums either.

If he was that much faster he could easily have closed the gap to a uncomfortable point where Vettel has no reason to fight and has concede the other car is faster and let him through. LEC never really got close enough to show he clearly was that much faster. Look at him and BOT later on. LEC was clearly faster but unable to get past. Had they been in that situation then you order a swap since one car is holding the other up. I think my statement of Vettel being faster at that point is quite valid.

Also with regard to the upgrade, VET has shown a clear improvement in form. Just compare his situation to earlier in the year at Bahrain where LEC out paced him massively. And at a few other tracks too. I'm not saying VET is suddenly the faster driver, but it certainly looks like he can push closer to a level where LEC has been for a while.

[zibby43]

I felt all season that Ferrari have been pushing their components harder than Mercedes. I assume, they don't want to take pu related penalties, because that would cast doubt on what their true pace is!

I had to record the race today. How was Merc’s race pace?

[foxmulder_ms]

... AS I said, Vettel will leave Ferrari by end of this year. He won't race ferrari in 2020. I am 100% confident....

He's under contract though. Won't breaking it just open up financial and legal problems for him?

I would love to see him Renault