2019 Russian Grand Prix - Sochi Autodrom, 27 - 29 September

[selvam_e2002]

Currently there is no point in this internal fight as the WCC and WDC are gone.
Ferrari are just building up problems for next season by not lancing this boil. Vettel is playing the same rule book as he did against Webber the key difference is that his car isn’t massively clear of everything else as it was back then.

I do't agree. When Lecrec did samething to Vettel in Beharin no one complained it. every one praised him. IN Beharin race ferrari told him to hold the position but he overtaken vettel. Now Lecrec facing same thing from Vettel but Lecrec could not digest it.

so, if lecrect did it then it is right. If Vettel did it then it is wrong.

Even this race, it is not mandatory to swap the position immediately. They can do it later stage once position 1 and 2 confirmed. Why they screwed Vettel race by calling him to pit lately? It reminds me 2007 Alonso Vs Hamilton.

very bad politics at Ferrari. It is because of Binotto. He should take a right call but he is not doing it.

[RZS10]

...

What a load of rubbish. Vettel was first instructed to box after K failure, then was told seconds later to "STOP NOW", and he did. This was broadcast on the main feed so I dont know which race you were watching, and imediately sets you off as being ignorant on the matter.
Yes, races can be finished without the K, but you would be last in in 10-15 laps on track like russia, so not worth doing. It's also more than likely other engine componenets were at risk, which is why they they told vettel to stop at once on track.

Vettel was 4,5s ahead before leclerc pitstop, and that's including vettel losing 0.5s lapping kubica. Only ignorant people would claim leclerc was faster in first stint.

I have to be honest that i missed the part where they told him to stop, i searched for the team radio and he even questioned it - my bad.
The last sentence then has to be "Ultimately Ferrari's decision to prioritize damage limitation of Vettel's PU over the team's success lead to the Mercedes 1-2..."

I always wonder why they park the cars in a way that they have to back them up (red) instead of doing a loop and going in forwards (blue) - would that be against any rules?


I stand by what i wrote regarding pace though - first of all i did not claim Leclerc was faster, i just threw it in as a possibility, secondly ... well ... in this post drunkf1fan elaborated on what i wrote in one short sentence: viewtopic.php?p=864898#p864898

[MtthsMlw]

https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/ ... 1226853376

[Phil]

I felt all season that Ferrari have been pushing their components harder than Mercedes. I assume, they don't want to take pu related penalties, because that would cast doubt on what their true pace is!

I had to record the race today. How was Merc’s race pace?

IMO, slower than Ferrari. True pace was masked by the fact that they were driving opposite stints (Ferrari starting on soft, Mercedes medium), but still i think Ferrari was the fastest package by a little. Count me in surprised, i thought Singapore was an anomaly and both Spa and Monza tailored to the Ferrari, but they were stronger than i gave them credit for at Socchi. Mercedes nailed the strategy perfectly though with the VS playing straight inti their hands. Very unlucky of Ferrari.

I have to say though, i personally expect Mercedes to very strong at Suzuka. If they arent, then wow at Ferrari.

[dans79]

I felt all season that Ferrari have been pushing their components harder than Mercedes. I assume, they don't want to take pu related penalties, because that would cast doubt on what their true pace is!

I had to record the race today. How was Merc’s race pace?

Very hard to give a definitive answer to that.

Lewis was catching Vettel at the end of the first stint, as the softs where done and the mediums still had life in them. When Charles pitted Lewis was 6.338 behind Vettel. When Vettel Pitted 3 laps later, Lewis was only 4.127 seconds behind, so he was gaining at 0.737 per lap.

If it hadn't been for the VSC and safety car, I assume Mercedes would have had Bottas block the Ferrari's as long as he could. Either giving Lewis the chance to come out clearly ahead, or come out right on leading Ferrari's gearbox, with a nice tire life and performance advantage.

[Xwang]

...

What a load of rubbish. Vettel was first instructed to box after K failure, then was told seconds later to "STOP NOW", and he did. This was broadcast on the main feed so I dont know which race you were watching, and imediately sets you off as being ignorant on the matter.
Yes, races can be finished without the K, but you would be last in in 10-15 laps on track like russia, so not worth doing. It's also more than likely other engine componenets were at risk, which is why they they told vettel to stop at once on track.

Vettel was 4,5s ahead before leclerc pitstop, and that's including vettel losing 0.5s lapping kubica. Only ignorant people would claim leclerc was faster in first stint.

I have to be honest that i missed the part where they told him to stop, i searched for the team radio and he even questioned it - my bad.
The last sentence then has to be "Ultimately Ferrari's decision to prioritize damage limitation of Vettel's PU over the team's success lead to the Mercedes 1-2..."

I always wonder why they park the cars in a way that they have to back them up (red) instead of doing a loop and going in forwards (blue) - would that be against any rules?
https://i.imgur.com/aCn33d8.png

I stand by what i wrote regarding pace though - first of all i did not claim Leclerc was faster, i just threw it in as a possibility, secondly ... well ... in this post drunkf1fan elaborated on what i wrote in one short sentence: viewtopic.php?p=864898#p864898

I fear that the blue line option can be seen by some as going the wrong way on the circuit, so maybe in general is better to not risk doing that.

[Jolle]

What a load of rubbish. Vettel was first instructed to box after K failure, then was told seconds later to "STOP NOW", and he did. This was broadcast on the main feed so I dont know which race you were watching, and imediately sets you off as being ignorant on the matter.
Yes, races can be finished without the K, but you would be last in in 10-15 laps on track like russia, so not worth doing. It's also more than likely other engine componenets were at risk, which is why they they told vettel to stop at once on track.

Vettel was 4,5s ahead before leclerc pitstop, and that's including vettel losing 0.5s lapping kubica. Only ignorant people would claim leclerc was faster in first stint.

I have to be honest that i missed the part where they told him to stop, i searched for the team radio and he even questioned it - my bad.
The last sentence then has to be "Ultimately Ferrari's decision to prioritize damage limitation of Vettel's PU over the team's success lead to the Mercedes 1-2..."

I always wonder why they park the cars in a way that they have to back them up (red) instead of doing a loop and going in forwards (blue) - would that be against any rules?
https://i.imgur.com/aCn33d8.png

I stand by what i wrote regarding pace though - first of all i did not claim Leclerc was faster, i just threw it in as a possibility, secondly ... well ... in this post drunkf1fan elaborated on what i wrote in one short sentence: viewtopic.php?p=864898#p864898

I fear that the blue line option can be seen by some as going the wrong way on the circuit, so maybe in general is better to not risk doing that.

Blue is normally a good option and drivers are quite aware what happens around the circuit on Thursday, but no overview how all the orange area's are when it's race day. There might be a crane or medial car blocking the entrance. Plus, the car was possible unsafe and with carbon being quite the conductor of electricity, the be parked at first away from marshals is a safe option.

[NathanOlder]

Race pace isn't easy read like that. As someone said Leclerc was only 1.5 down after 8 laps while waiting to be let through. Just because someone drops back doesn't mean they are slower, it means they have different plans. With Hamilton often he'll start a stint slowly then come on hard, other drivers go the other way. Vettel was being told to give the position back but then would throw in a fastest lap pushing, Vettel could be using engine modes he wasn't supposed to be using or using extra fuel and would have had to go slower later in the race.

He 'seemed' faster, that doesnt' mean he actually was faster.

As for faster since the upgrade, again there's zero evidence of that. Literally no evidence in qualifying and in the races once Vettel was ahead Leclerc already knows he has no chance to race in Singapore. Either he's getting let ahead or he's P2 so there is no reason for him to match him. But regardless drivers have always had stronger or weaker tracks. Leclerc for all we know was unwilling to attack or risk their cars by racing normally and may have been told flatly by the team that they aren't allowed to do wheel to wheel racing. There are far too many possibilities to claim who was faster or not. Really the only time you see genuine pace of cars is when they are in fighting range of other drivers and are catching up.

IE if Hamilton is first, Leclerc is 5 seconds back and Bottas is 10 seconds back from him and unable to catch we can assume that Bottas can't catch or match the pace, but we can't say conversely that Hamilton can't go even faster if he has a gap he's comfortable with.

Leclerc likely not being allowed to race Vettel hard and only needing to stay ahead of Hamilton, may simply be going only as fast as he needs to.

Also we don't know that had Vettel/Leclerc switched on say lap 3, that Leclerc wouldn't have gone off into the distance faster than Vettel could. All we actually can tell is, Vettel and Leclerc had a deal to manage the start of the race, Vettel got ahead and refused to give up the position and created an issue in the team, his car failed, teh VSC probably had little effect as Russell's car failure would likely have had the same effect a few laps later anyway. Leclerc may have gotten second place if he stayed on the mediums as much because Bottas isn't a strong overtaker and Leclerc had the straight line speed but for me the win still wouldn't have been on. If he couldn't pass Bottas on softs I don't think he'd have passed Hamilton on the mediums either.

If he was that much faster he could easily have closed the gap to a uncomfortable point where Vettel has no reason to fight and has concede the other car is faster and let him through. LEC never really got close enough to show he clearly was that much faster. Look at him and BOT later on. LEC was clearly faster but unable to get past. Had they been in that situation then you order a swap since one car is holding the other up. I think my statement of Vettel being faster at that point is quite valid.

Also with regard to the upgrade, VET has shown a clear improvement in form. Just compare his situation to earlier in the year at Bahrain where LEC out paced him massively. And at a few other tracks too. I'm not saying VET is suddenly the faster driver, but it certainly looks like he can push closer to a level where LEC has been for a while.

Leclerc still hammering Vettel in Qualifying. And that's one of Vettels supposed strengths

[Mamba]

Leclerc still hammering Vettel in Qualifying. And that's one of Vettels supposed strengths

Difference between race pace and quali pace. LEC seems to have a clear upper hand with regards to qualifying ATM over VET. Race pace after the upgrade (granted two races are not that good of an indication) seem to be pretty equal.

[NathanOlder]

Yeah, so with the cars being so hard to overtake, Vettel is done for as he's between quarter and half a second off Charles.

[Gothrek]

If I was in Leclerc shoes, I would be furious, come on, they had an agreement and then his teammate didn't play along, even when he got direct instructions from the pit wall.

Ferrari better make sure they don't have close battles the coming year, there will be at one point two dinged up Ferrari's parked at the side of the track.

Apparently no one at Ferrari remembers multi-21.

Apparently no one remembers multi 12 a few races before where Webber didnt listen?

[Bill_Kar]

Vettel was literally handed race-winning positions in these two races and people say he has superior race pace smh.

[dans79]

If I was in Leclerc shoes, I would be furious, come on, they had an agreement and then his teammate didn't play along, even when he got direct instructions from the pit wall.

Ferrari better make sure they don't have close battles the coming year, there will be at one point two dinged up Ferrari's parked at the side of the track.

Apparently no one at Ferrari remembers multi-21.

Apparently no one remembers multi 12 a few races before where Webber didnt listen?

Ferrari doesn't employ Webber, so anything he did is irrelevant.

[ubuysa]

His first response on the radio to being asked to give the place up was roughly speaking "okay, but maybe we wait a couple of laps for a gap".

Vettel clear as day knew he was supposed to give up the position if he ends up first, no driver in history agrees immediately to give up the position when asked to let their team mate through. He then said, "I would have got him anyway", and I forget the other message now but he was basically making excuses to not have to give the position back.

But his first response not being to tell the team to smeg off when asked to give up a place proves without any doubt that he knew he was supposed to give the position back. The idea they wouldn't have considered it, lol, no, literally everyone including Leclerc yesterday was saying 1st place isn't even that great because the slipstream is so strong and he was purposefully giving it to the car with the highest straight line speed. It was clearly a possibility and it was also obvious that the car with the higher speed and slipstream would likely get ahead and that slowing to prevent that was going to open them up to mistakes in T2 rather than just letting him through cleanly and giving it back later.

Think to Ferrari last year in Monza, if you try to slow to give up a place early you create room for someone to come at you as Hamilton did. Vettel should have defended Kimi in Monza for some laps till they had a chance to switch them but instead he went stupid and ruined his race. Ferrari planed on it, expected he'd probably get ahead and planned to swap them back and clearly Vettel was aware of it.

When Vettel started to speed up rather than let the gap close and started making excuses about how he got ahead on his own rather than via help the team did the right thing. Left him alone and forced it via strategy rather than rely on Vettel to do what he agreed to do on track.

The issue here is Vettel was the faster car at that point. Even if a swap was agreed they would be throwing away a possible win. What if after their engineered swap Vettel again proved to be slightly faster? Would they then focus on the win and ask for another swap or let them race? Why not let them race at the start? This will cost Ferrari dearly soon if they don't clip Leclerc's wings. Especially now that it seems on Race day Seb is a possible match after the upgrade package.

Ferrari need to back the faster driver on any given day - no matter if it is no 5 or 16. If it were not for the failure of Seb's engine and George's brakes they could still have conceded a win had Seb still been the faster car and they'd let them race with soft tyred Mercs coming...

Could not agree more. Vettel was the faster one one race today, and they need to let him race his race.

I'm in agreement too. It was quite ridiculous to expect Seb, who was setting fastest lap after fastest lap, to slow down to let Charles through. Charles should have been mature enough to realise that and wait for the race to unfold and an opportunity to get the place back to come, as it did.

I do hope that success isn't going to Charles' head, but he is starting to sound a bit like a prima Donna. He should consider how fortunate he is to be in that car at all and not expecting the world to move aside for him.

He was unfortunate that the SC after Seb's stop happened when it did, but that's racing. He should know that already.

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[Gothrek]

Apparently no one at Ferrari remembers multi-21.

Apparently no one remembers multi 12 a few races before where Webber didnt listen?

Ferrari doesn't employ Webber, so anything he did is irrelevant.

Ok, maybe it was too difficult for you to grasp. If you are in a team and your team mate disobeys a teamorder. Would you do it a bit later? I think 90% of the people would not even consider it. That is my point, the multi21 is a result of normal human behaviour.