Well,,, Then we will all be waiting for the pictures when you shell out that kind of bread for any EV.IMHO 60-70k$ is far from expensive for all that
This particular problem is not a fault of the concept of the car, but a fault of design that requires one additional step when owning that car. Manufactures and designers didn't factor in that humanity, as a whole, is fundamentally lazy.izzy wrote: ↑07 Feb 2020, 22:37yes in theory a plug-in hybrid is the ideal way in the short term isn't it, while energy density of batteries is so much worse than petrol and diesel. Tho they have just been finding that a lot of people don't bother plugging them in, and that makes them worse instead of better...
...We booked a test drive of an i3 a year or two ago and the dealer hadn't bothered plugging it either!
.So, the solution is to properly incentivise people to plug-in their PHEV and/or make it so easy to do that it becomes second nature... if I just pulled into my car space and the car connected automatically that'd be great!
The problem with the F1 setup is it's debatable how well the MGU-H will work in a car running at like 5-10% WOT on a motorway cruise. It's probably the ideal architecture for a long distance truck though (other than cost).AJI wrote: ↑08 Feb 2020, 00:00Even though F1 is about as far from road relevant as you can get, I see the MGU-K as the perfect fit for PHEV use. 120kW & 200Nm is good useable power & torque and also big enough for good regeneration capability, they're the starter motor and alternator, and they couple directly to the crank.
This spec, redesigned to be more robust for real world conditions, would be ideal.
Couple it with a small turbo diesel and add ~20kWh of storage and I'm sold.
There was an article a couple of months ago about experimenting with induction charging with plates in the road, in parking spaces. They lose a bit of efficiency of course but if you had plenty of solar or wind available that could work. You might need to lower a charging plate down, to help with that, but it'd be a solution for people in apartments tooAJI wrote: ↑08 Feb 2020, 01:04This particular problem is not a fault of the concept of the car, but a fault of design that requires one additional step when owning that car. Manufactures and designers didn't factor in that humanity, as a whole, is fundamentally lazy.
That said, the only reason BEV drivers go through the 'arduous' task of plugging in at home or work (or wherever) is because they have to. PHEV owners don't. So, the solution is to properly incentivise people to plug-in their PHEV and/or make it so easy to do that it becomes second nature.
I think a more attractive option for connecting BEV's would be beneficial too. I mean, I fill my car once a fortnight.., sometimes twice. If I had to plug it in every other day it'd be annoying, but if I just pulled into my car space and the car connected automatically that'd be great! I'm sure BEV manufacturers are working on this problem, and that solution would fix the PHEV issue you cite.
Wireless electric car chargers to be installed on Britain's streets next year meaning owners don't need to plug in
Trials of induction pads to take place across London, Midlands and Scotland
They will be installed in residential streets, car parks and taxi ranks
Pads are sunk into the ground and pump out an alternating electromagnetic field
This is converted into electricity when a vehicle is parked on top of it
My idea is based on the MHEV principal that the K does a lot more work. The H does the bulk of the work in an F1 car, so it's not really applicable to a road car scenario. I'd even go so far as to say the H is useless in a road car application.Cold Fussion wrote: ↑08 Feb 2020, 05:42The problem with the F1 setup is it's debatable how well the MGU-H will work in a car running at like 5-10% WOT on a motorway cruise. It's probably the ideal architecture for a long distance truck though (other than cost).
You'd think Elon has a room full of engineers trying to solve this problem?strad wrote: ↑08 Feb 2020, 05:10.So, the solution is to properly incentivise people to plug-in their PHEV and/or make it so easy to do that it becomes second nature... if I just pulled into my car space and the car connected automatically that'd be great!
You touch on something I have thought about a few times. IF you could simply pull in and park your vehicle over a pad and wirelessly charge up similarly to how I place my phone over a charging pad. People would use/like that.
Your fortune is made,,, Now go out and do it.
Great thanks, that´s awsome for off-road maneuvers in tight spacesBrake Horse Power wrote: ↑08 Feb 2020, 01:06Andres, here you go.. Tank steer
https://youtu.be/yzwM8KE2L3I
Agree completely, but lately I´ve become a bit more optimistic again, thanks to Nikola announcement of their new battery with 4x the energy density of current LiIon tech. We´ll see how real it is...AJI wrote: ↑08 Feb 2020, 00:22I've been waiting for a while now, as have you, no? Just re-read some of your posts about emerging battery tech from years ago.Andres125sx wrote: ↑07 Feb 2020, 20:31... If 650km are not enogh just wait for next generation of batteries...
I'm not saying it's not going to happen, but I believe you and me belong to the optimists side of the battery tech argument, and it's getting tiresome perpetually being disappointed...
Not exactly, they don´t push for option 2, that´s just an added bonus of a huge battery to increase range. Charging and discharging capacity depends on battery capacity, it´s defined by battery capacity actually (for example 10C, wich means 10 times the capacity, ie. a 100kWh battery will provide 100kW x 10 = 1000kw... so if the battery is bigger it will provide more power and they can use more powerful motors, specially when weight penalty for a powerful electric motor is minor compared to ICEsAJI wrote: ↑08 Feb 2020, 00:22This is the biggest red herring out there.It also ticks another box you didn´t ask for, but surely you´d be happy with it. 0-60mph in 3 seconds
BEV's are a one-trick-pony in this respect.
Who really cares if your BEV can out accelerate an ICE super car? Back in the real world, if you offer 0-100 in 7 seconds and a 5 minute charge or a car that takes 30 minutes to charge, but can do 0-100 in 3 seconds, which one will you choose?
The fact is, BEV manufacturers can't offer option 1, so they push option 2 like it's something everyone needs...
I agree that that a PHEV with something like a 10-20 kwh battery and a lot of recovery potential would be ideal for 99% of buyers today. The problem is that setup is very expense and we may never see such a setup in something like a base level corolla because of the cost of having both a battery and engine setup. The cost of the engine and gearbox likely wont decrease in the next 10 years, and I wonder if the battery cost decreased to a level to make such a system viable, whether or not it may be cheap enough to just go full BEV.AJI wrote: ↑08 Feb 2020, 11:08My idea is based on the MHEV principal that the K does a lot more work. The H does the bulk of the work in an F1 car, so it's not really applicable to a road car scenario. I'd even go so far as to say the H is useless in a road car application.
Scenario: cruise control.
To maintain perfect speed control a K is useful to reduce speed on downhill runs and maintain the ideal gap for adaptive cruise control.
Scenario: stop start heavy traffic.
If the K is big enough (200Nm in my example) there is a lot more recovery ability. Also, as speeds are low, there are only light throttle applications and low power requirements. Pure EV is adequate.
I'm by no means anti BEV, but the limitations (at least in the short term) make them unattractive for too many reasons to simply write-off PHEV as merely a stop-gap until battery tech improves, which as I have implied, may never reach the convenience of liquid hydrocarbon. Well, at least in my lifetime...
I honestly hope there's a revolution in battery tech and also autonomous vehicles that I'll be able to take advantage of, but from what I've gathered neither is realistic within 20 years?
They are in the pipeline. Once an alternative fuel is developed it may be a good alternitiveCold Fussion wrote: ↑08 Feb 2020, 18:25I agree that that a PHEV with something like a 10-20 kwh battery and a lot of recovery potential would be ideal for 99% of buyers today. The problem is that setup is very expense and we may never see such a setup in something like a base level corolla because of the cost of having both a battery and engine setup. The cost of the engine and gearbox likely wont decrease in the next 10 years, and I wonder if the battery cost decreased to a level to make such a system viable, whether or not it may be cheap enough to just go full BEV.AJI wrote: ↑08 Feb 2020, 11:08My idea is based on the MHEV principal that the K does a lot more work. The H does the bulk of the work in an F1 car, so it's not really applicable to a road car scenario. I'd even go so far as to say the H is useless in a road car application.
Scenario: cruise control.
To maintain perfect speed control a K is useful to reduce speed on downhill runs and maintain the ideal gap for adaptive cruise control.
Scenario: stop start heavy traffic.
If the K is big enough (200Nm in my example) there is a lot more recovery ability. Also, as speeds are low, there are only light throttle applications and low power requirements. Pure EV is adequate.
I'm by no means anti BEV, but the limitations (at least in the short term) make them unattractive for too many reasons to simply write-off PHEV as merely a stop-gap until battery tech improves, which as I have implied, may never reach the convenience of liquid hydrocarbon. Well, at least in my lifetime...
I honestly hope there's a revolution in battery tech and also autonomous vehicles that I'll be able to take advantage of, but from what I've gathered neither is realistic within 20 years?
Let's face it, even $50000 is fantasy money for a car for most people, and I see no sign that the demographic here is spectacularly rich for a first world hobbyist forum. I happen to drive a car that costs that much, but that's via my employer, I wouldn't pay anything like that unsubsidised (I lease it for $240 per month).
