Racing Point RP20

[adrianjordan]

https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/ ... 8294935552

Shock horror, team Toto Wolf holds shares in and uses Merc PU won't protest team Toto Wolf also holds shares in and also uses Merc PU

[PowerandtheGlory]

You DO realise the FIA banned screens in the pits in testing to allow competitors to photograph one another to copy bit and close the field up?!

Maybe you'd like to read the official decision,

the sporting regulations,

and the technical rules

before you comment further, because frankly it's clear you don't know anything about the rules.

They didnt ban them to ‘allow’ people to take photos...
They banned them because it hides the team, like putting a screen up in from of a football dugout..
it would have looked rubbish on netflix

That rule is in place since 2019 is for no screens during testing
There are rules of NO screens during RACE weekend since 2010 or earlier

I have read the rules.

I know the cars are technically legal

But the means of achieving this is copying merc intellectual property with little or no amendments..

The whole thing is a clone and im glad the FiA have banned Copycats..

“You should only submit your own work...”

Where did u get that? Where in rules it states that
You just need to make the 'listed parts' - and it is currently limited to the survival cell, the front impact structure, the roll structures and bodywork with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed bodywork geometries. All the other thing can be brought from others OR manufactured based on CAD.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/brak ... 0/4361531/

Coming to Aero parts, if no one can copy it then F1 would have died off in the 60s and 70s. Every car including the top and bottom teams have copied their every VISIBLE innovation from each other. No way FIA can stop that (unless they want to allow one team to hoard all the innovations).

i love this tweet;

[siskue2005]

https://twitter.com/LukeSmithF1/status/ ... 8294935552

Shock horror, team Toto Wolf holds shares in and uses Merc PU won't protest team Toto Wolf also holds shares in and also uses Merc PU

Yup the same way as all teams expect Hass and Alfa Romeo (the teams with Ferrari PU) didnot join the protest against the Secret Ferrari Deal with FIA in March 2020
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... otor-sport
Mercedes, Red Bull, McLaren, Racing Point, Renault, AlphaTauri and Williams joined forces to demand answers. The only teams who did not join the protest were Alfa Romeo and Haas, both of whom use Ferrari engines.
shock really

[siskue2005]

They didnt ban them to ‘allow’ people to take photos...
They banned them because it hides the team, like putting a screen up in from of a football dugout..
it would have looked rubbish on netflix

That rule is in place since 2019 is for no screens during testing
There are rules of NO screens during RACE weekend since 2010 or earlier

I have read the rules.

I know the cars are technically legal

But the means of achieving this is copying merc intellectual property with little or no amendments..

The whole thing is a clone and im glad the FiA have banned Copycats..

“You should only submit your own work...”

Where did u get that? Where in rules it states that
You just need to make the 'listed parts' - and it is currently limited to the survival cell, the front impact structure, the roll structures and bodywork with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed bodywork geometries. All the other thing can be brought from others OR manufactured based on CAD.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/brak ... 0/4361531/

Coming to Aero parts, if no one can copy it then F1 would have died off in the 60s and 70s. Every car including the top and bottom teams have copied their every VISIBLE innovation from each other. No way FIA can stop that (unless they want to allow one team to hoard all the innovations).

i love this tweet;
twitter

Funny tweet, but on a serious note, THERE is NO law preventing teams to buy parts from shelf from other teams

They all buy already prepared parts from their other teams and assemble! Do you think they sit and make all the individual engine parts, gearboxes, suspensions and up until 2019 brake ducts at their own factory from CAD??

It is all part of cost cutting introduced by FIA a decade or more ago

Posting this again if you have not read it before:

You just need to make the 'listed parts' - and it is currently limited to the survival cell, the front impact structure, the roll structures and bodywork with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed bodywork geometries. All the other thing can be brought from others OR manufactured based on CAD.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/brak ... 0/4361531/

[PowerandtheGlory]

That rule is in place since 2019 is for no screens during testing
There are rules of NO screens during RACE weekend since 2010 or earlier


Where did u get that? Where in rules it states that
You just need to make the 'listed parts' - and it is currently limited to the survival cell, the front impact structure, the roll structures and bodywork with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed bodywork geometries. All the other thing can be brought from others OR manufactured based on CAD.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/brak ... 0/4361531/

Coming to Aero parts, if no one can copy it then F1 would have died off in the 60s and 70s. Every car including the top and bottom teams have copied their every VISIBLE innovation from each other. No way FIA can stop that (unless they want to allow one team to hoard all the innovations).

i love this tweet;

Funny tweet, but on a serious note, THERE is NO law preventing teams to buy off the shelf parts from other teams

They all buy already prepared parts from their other teams and assemble! Do you think they sit a make all the engine parts, gearboxes, suspensions and up until 2019 brake ducts??

It is all part of cost cutting introduced by FIA a decade or more ago

I am all for cost cutting, close racing, stronger midfield teams, cars following closer, Williams winning races again, Teams using customer engines, saving Polar bears, but nobody wants to see a direct competitor (not a B team) effectively copy a car from the previous year, but still not be an official B team. And nobody wants politics and Board rooms to dominate F1 (even though it does most of the time)

There is something not quite right about copying an entire car, by any means (photography... yea right!) or getting drawings or borrowing another teams wind tunnel (copy and paste)...

Because this feels like a Merc power play... and do we want F1 to be all about teams running 1 or 2 chassis between the whole field.. and 2-3 engines between everyone.. then Turn over and watch Indycar and plug yourself onto a Ventilator... (sorry US guys.. i still like nascar)

F1 is about teams doing different things, different engines, different interpretations, different tracks favouring different cars... and not feeling as though the race result has been determined in a board room the day before they arrive at a track.

Merc deserve all the plaudits for their success, and rightly so... but stop trying to control the sport... case in point- offering their engines at massive price loss to price out other teams, people will be saying economies of sale blah-blah.. but in truth its like 'Made in china' undercut everyone to drive them out of business till your the only one left, then you control the table... Offering Mclaren the engines cheaper than Renault, Mclaren think yes, we can save money... but then Mercedes get even more influence... its just a power play..

[siskue2005]

I am all for cost cutting, close racing, stronger midfield teams, cars following closer, Williams winning races again, Teams using customer engines, saving Polar bears, but nobody wants to see a direct competitor (not a B team) effectively copy a car from the previous year, but still not be an official B team. And nobody wants politics and Board rooms to dominate F1 (even though it does most of the time)

There is something not quite right about copying an entire car, by any means (photography... yea right!) or getting drawings or borrowing another teams wind tunnel (copy and paste)...

Because this feels like a Merc power play... and do we want F1 to be all about teams running 1 or 2 chassis between the whole field.. and 2-3 engines between everyone.. then Turn over and watch Indycar and plug yourself onto a Ventilator... (sorry US guys.. i still like nascar)

F1 is about teams doing different things, different engines, different interpretations, different tracks favouring different cars... and not feeling as though the race result has been determined in a board room the day before they arrive at a track.

Merc deserve all the plaudits for their success, and rightly so... but stop trying to control the sport... case in point- offering their engines at massive price loss to price out other teams, people will be saying economies of sale blah-blah.. but in truth its like 'Made in china' undercut everyone to drive them out of business till your the only one left, then you control the table... Offering Mclaren the engines cheaper than Renault, Mclaren think yes, we can save money... but then Mercedes get even more influence... its just a power play..

https://www.racefans.net/2018/02/15/haa ... -analysis/
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... to-f1-2018

Where you this opposed when Hass is also a Ferrari copy for years? or are you just opposed now bcoz it is hurting your fav team?
Or didnt care about Ferrari power play when all the Ferrari powered teams were in top ten every qualifying ?

[PowerandtheGlory]

That rule is in place since 2019 is for no screens during testing
There are rules of NO screens during RACE weekend since 2010 or earlier


Where did u get that? Where in rules it states that
You just need to make the 'listed parts' - and it is currently limited to the survival cell, the front impact structure, the roll structures and bodywork with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed bodywork geometries. All the other thing can be brought from others OR manufactured based on CAD.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/brak ... 0/4361531/

Coming to Aero parts, if no one can copy it then F1 would have died off in the 60s and 70s. Every car including the top and bottom teams have copied their every VISIBLE innovation from each other. No way FIA can stop that (unless they want to allow one team to hoard all the innovations).

i love this tweet;
twitter

Funny tweet, but on a serious note, THERE is NO law preventing teams to buy parts from shelf from other teams

They all buy already prepared parts from their other teams and assemble! Do you think they sit and make all the individual engine parts, gearboxes, suspensions and up until 2019 brake ducts at their own factory from CAD??

It is all part of cost cutting introduced by FIA a decade or more ago

Posting this again if you have not read it before:

You just need to make the 'listed parts' - and it is currently limited to the survival cell, the front impact structure, the roll structures and bodywork with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed bodywork geometries. All the other thing can be brought from others OR manufactured based on CAD.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/brak ... 0/4361531/

Yep so the article says Brake ducts are a listed part for 2020.. So you cant have a car running a BD from a 2019 design.. or run a car in 2020 that apparently would physically accommodate a Merc part given this year- like the ones they borrowed.. Merc are passing intellectual material at their discretion to who they want- unofficially. Slam Dunk, Racing point cant do this..?

A few years ago i suggested that Any team winning 3 championships in a row, should accept that in doing do their car would become common knowledge because to win a hatrick is a superb achievement but we don't want the sport to get too samey.. it would level the playing field... in essence the idea is madness because everybody would just copy the car and arrive next year with a copycat car....... BUT this is what MERC and RP have done... physically sell a Championship winning car to a competitor the year after it won... that does affect the balance of power in the sport..

Ferrari spend £££££ to not get close, Redbull Spend ££££ and get close... RP get last year's car.. but that undermines the efforts of the other teams..

There a very dangerous precedences in History where the organisation in power has sold off its knowledge to lesser teams or organisations... not just in sport.... and then its ended up very very badly...

[PowerandtheGlory]

I am all for cost cutting, close racing, stronger midfield teams, cars following closer, Williams winning races again, Teams using customer engines, saving Polar bears, but nobody wants to see a direct competitor (not a B team) effectively copy a car from the previous year, but still not be an official B team. And nobody wants politics and Board rooms to dominate F1 (even though it does most of the time)

There is something not quite right about copying an entire car, by any means (photography... yea right!) or getting drawings or borrowing another teams wind tunnel (copy and paste)...

Because this feels like a Merc power play... and do we want F1 to be all about teams running 1 or 2 chassis between the whole field.. and 2-3 engines between everyone.. then Turn over and watch Indycar and plug yourself onto a Ventilator... (sorry US guys.. i still like nascar)

F1 is about teams doing different things, different engines, different interpretations, different tracks favouring different cars... and not feeling as though the race result has been determined in a board room the day before they arrive at a track.

Merc deserve all the plaudits for their success, and rightly so... but stop trying to control the sport... case in point- offering their engines at massive price loss to price out other teams, people will be saying economies of sale blah-blah.. but in truth its like 'Made in china' undercut everyone to drive them out of business till your the only one left, then you control the table... Offering Mclaren the engines cheaper than Renault, Mclaren think yes, we can save money... but then Mercedes get even more influence... its just a power play..

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... ri-top.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQLzixvX0AI ... name=small
https://e0.365dm.com/18/04/768x432/skys ... 0403112035
https://www.racefans.net/2018/02/15/haa ... -analysis/
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... to-f1-2018

Where you this opposed when Hass is also a Ferrari copy for years? or are you just opposed now bcoz it is hurting your fav team?
Or didnt care about Ferrari power play when all the Ferrari powered teams were in top ten every qualifying ?

No I'm glad you agree, Haas entered F1 when it allowed teams to sell parts and we need a US team in F1 its good, But lets be honest Haas has never managed to get it to work bless them, and the car design was outsourced to Dallara i think (based in Italy...!! i know!!) but i was also very vocal in prev years when Redbull just gave Toro rosso (as it still was) the whole back end of the Redbull and Toro rosso was a test team for redbull and Honda... it stunk, the whole team and the drivers (Poor old Hartley) were just running new parts every weekend... I hated that...

Look now... Ferrari have had a power drop and it will probably kill off Haas... and Alfa are gone... too much sharing going on...

So when is it going to happen that RP and Merc become Aston and Mrrc and they race closely... and yet we know that underneath everything the cars are the same... it doesnt feel right... im watching a race where the cars are near identical... until Merc think RP are getting too close and then they sell them duff parts to engineer the race results..

I hate this stuff too.... clones....

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/guan ... ver-evoque

That is basically Racing Point, a once proud team who over achieved- that got bought out and suddenly had so much m Money they lost their morals...

Anything that isn't authentic, it just grates me and sullies the names, drivers and teams that sacrificed their lives in F1..

[siskue2005]

Yep so the article says Brake ducts are a listed part for 2020.. So you cant have a car running a BD from a 2019 design.. or run a car in 2020 that apparently would physically accommodate a Merc part given this year- like the ones they borrowed.. Merc are passing intellectual material at their discretion to who they want- unofficially. Slam Dunk, Racing point cant do this..?

But it is not slam dunk as people think, and that is why fia have let them go lightly

Coz the new rule only apply from FP1 of the first race, SO until them brake ducts are NOT in the listed parts (this is the RP argument is). So Merc can give them already made parts to them as RP already have those designs.

Their Front brake ducts are ok ed by the FIA coz they ran them last season, but the rear brake ducts which they brought together with front are still their's and they can make a similar brake duct from it or use the same design. and That is why they can continue to use it in 2020.

Honestly it was FIA's fault as they didnt close this loophole properly before suddenly changing the rules for 2020 or the FIA didnt put a specific date or clarify such things before changing the rules.. 2009 all over again. and that is why RP is protesting.

A few years ago i suggested that Any team winning 3 championships in a row, should accept that in doing do their car would become common knowledge because to win a hatrick is a superb achievement but we don't want the sport to get too samey.. it would level the playing field... in essence the idea is madness because everybody would just copy the car and arrive next year with a copycat car....... BUT this is what MERC and RP have done... physically sell a Championship winning car to a competitor the year after it won... that does affect the balance of power in the sport..

Ferrari spend £££££ to not get close, Redbull Spend ££££ and get close... RP get last year's car.. but that undermines the efforts of the other teams..

There a very dangerous precedences in History where the organisation in power has sold off its knowledge to lesser teams or organisations... not just in sport.... and then its ended up very very badly...

https://www.racefans.net/2018/02/15/haa ... -analysis/
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... to-f1-2018

Where you this opposed when Hass is also a Ferrari copy for years? or are you just opposed now bcoz it is hurting your fav team?
Or didnt care about Ferrari power play when all the Ferrari powered teams were in top ten every qualifying ?

[Big Tea]

I am all for cost cutting, close racing, stronger midfield teams, cars following closer, Williams winning races again, Teams using customer engines, saving Polar bears, but nobody wants to see a direct competitor (not a B team) effectively copy a car from the previous year, but still not be an official B team. And nobody wants politics and Board rooms to dominate F1 (even though it does most of the time)

There is something not quite right about copying an entire car, by any means (photography... yea right!) or getting drawings or borrowing another teams wind tunnel (copy and paste)...

Because this feels like a Merc power play... and do we want F1 to be all about teams running 1 or 2 chassis between the whole field.. and 2-3 engines between everyone.. then Turn over and watch Indycar and plug yourself onto a Ventilator... (sorry US guys.. i still like nascar)

F1 is about teams doing different things, different engines, different interpretations, different tracks favouring different cars... and not feeling as though the race result has been determined in a board room the day before they arrive at a track.

Merc deserve all the plaudits for their success, and rightly so... but stop trying to control the sport... case in point- offering their engines at massive price loss to price out other teams, people will be saying economies of sale blah-blah.. but in truth its like 'Made in china' undercut everyone to drive them out of business till your the only one left, then you control the table... Offering Mclaren the engines cheaper than Renault, Mclaren think yes, we can save money... but then Mercedes get even more influence... its just a power play..

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... ri-top.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQLzixvX0AI ... name=small
https://e0.365dm.com/18/04/768x432/skys ... 0403112035
https://www.racefans.net/2018/02/15/haa ... -analysis/
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... to-f1-2018

Where you this opposed when Hass is also a Ferrari copy for years? or are you just opposed now bcoz it is hurting your fav team?
Or didnt care about Ferrari power play when all the Ferrari powered teams were in top ten every qualifying ?

No I'm glad you agree, Haas entered F1 when it allowed teams to sell parts and we need a US team in F1 its good, But lets be honest Haas has never managed to get it to work bless them, and the car design was outsourced to Dallara i think (based in Italy...!! i know!!) but i was also very vocal in prev years when Redbull just gave Toro rosso (as it still was) the whole back end of the Redbull and Toro rosso was a test team for redbull and Honda... it stunk, the whole team and the drivers (Poor old Hartley) were just running new parts every weekend... I hated that...

Look now... Ferrari have had a power drop and it will probably kill off Haas... and Alfa are gone... too much sharing going on...

So when is it going to happen that RP and Merc become Aston and Mrrc and they race closely... and yet we know that underneath everything the cars are the same... it doesnt feel right... im watching a race where the cars are near identical... until Merc think RP are getting too close and then they sell them duff parts to engineer the race results..

I hate this stuff too.... clones....

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/guan ... ver-evoque

That is basically Racing Point, a once proud team who over achieved- that got bought out and suddenly had so much m Money they lost their morals...

Anything that isn't authentic, it just grates me and sullies the names, drivers and teams that sacrificed their lives in F1..

Don't forget though that the 'copies' are of year old cars. You could put an argument that any team who do not find an advantage in that car and incorporate into their own 'this years car' is maybe not a top team anyway?

( cards on the table, I am against clone cars, but the rule is there)

[SiLo]

This is literally only an issue because last years Merc is faster than a lot of this years cars.

It's not RPs fault that a bunch of teams are actually slower than last year.

[siskue2005]

No I'm glad you agree, Haas entered F1 when it allowed teams to sell parts

No that was never allowed when HASS entered F1 in 2016! please dont twist the truth
They were allowed to buy the LISTED parts only, which is same as now!

and we need a US team in F1 its good, But lets be honest Haas has never managed to get it to work bless them, and the car design was outsourced to Dallara i think (based in Italy...!! i know!!)

So, according to you as long as the team dont make it work it is ok?
and also if they come from an exotic country (in terms of F1) then it is ok to do that?
Weird

but i was also very vocal in prev years

when Redbull just gave Toro rosso (as it still was) the whole back end of the Redbull and Toro rosso was a test team for redbull and Honda... it stunk, the whole team and the drivers (Poor old Hartley) were just running new parts every weekend... I hated that...

But when Toro rosso joined in late 2006 to 2008, they were by regulations could share the wind tunnel and sport the same care. The 2008 Torro rosso was practically just an under developed 2008 red bull car! only after 2009 that rule was changed by FIA and told they cant do that and brought the LISTED parts rule.

Look now... Ferrari have had a power drop and it will probably kill off Haas... and Alfa are gone... too much sharing going on...

So, according to you as Ferrari had an illegal engine and made a secret deal with FIA and hence are slow and the teams like HASS who have exact same last year's Ferrari car should all be ignored BUT the exact same deal with RP should not be allowed??

So when is it going to happen that RP and Merc become Aston and Mrrc and they race closely... and yet we know that underneath everything the cars are the same... it doesnt feel right... im watching a race where the cars are near identical... until Merc think RP are getting too close and then they sell them duff parts to engineer the race results..

So you are OK with HASS doing the same with Ferrari, but NOT ok with RP doing same with Merc?

I hate this stuff too.... clones....
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/guan ... ver-evoque

Really? as i can see it is only a problem when your fav teams are handicapped

That is basically Racing Point, a once proud team who over achieved- that got bought out and suddenly had so much m Money they lost their morals...

Everyone got to do whatever necessary to survive.

Anything that isn't authentic, it just grates me and sullies the names, drivers and teams that sacrificed their lives in F1..

Really? then you dont know F1 history; Frank Williams started in F1 by entering a private Brabham BT26A to his friend Piers Courage in 1969.! there are even more examples, please go through this link
https://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/ ... tid=177139

[siskue2005]

This is literally only an issue because last years Merc is faster than a lot of this years cars.

It's not RPs fault that a bunch of teams are actually slower than last year.

Exactly!

[PowerandtheGlory]

This is literally only an issue because last years Merc is faster than a lot of this years cars.

It's not RPs fault that a bunch of teams are actually slower than last year.

Exactly!

But its not a RP is a W10.. that's the point..

[siskue2005]

This is literally only an issue because last years Merc is faster than a lot of this years cars.

It's not RPs fault that a bunch of teams are actually slower than last year.

Exactly!

But its not a RP is a W10.. that's the point..

Do you have any proof that RP didnt copy them and Mercedes send them CAD for their entire car? other than your personal opinion?