[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Sayeman]

So people still moaning about Honda? I thought they had a good race today

[etusch]

So people still moaning about Honda? I thought they had a good race today

Car's race pace also good just eat tyres faster.

[Wynters]

Not really, is is totally off topic talk that is trying to simplify to a ridiculous level plus it is fallacy, trying to make a point which is not there.

Mercedes has a top Level chassis maybe a bit aimed at one lap pace
RBR has a almost top chassis that is easier on tires
Williams has a bottom tier chassis.

That was, indeed, my point. The original contention (that a few years was enough for everyone to reach exactly the same development point) was ridiculous so I was placing it's ridiculousness into context.

[Moore77]

People need to accept the fact that Honda ain't delivering any time soon. The Renault cars are flying in the straights.
Ironic how Red bull struggled to manage the tyres. Degs was just too high.

Then why are McLaren and Renault both a lap down?

Because their chassis is not as good as RBR’s (in the hands of Max to be more accurate)... It isn’t engine related.


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That is true. I don't think Honda has the same ultimate grunt that Renault has. There is not a big margin, probably a tenth or max less than two tenths, purely on power. Renault's biggest problem was reliability, which was holding them back from unleashing full power. That is why their PUs were blowing up up until last year. This year so far, they seem to be holding up better and showing up decent performance.

Neither McLaren, nor Renault have as good a chassis as Red bull has, which is the big differentiating factor today. If McLaren spins up a chassis that could rival Red Bull, then Red Bull have their hands full to fight with McLaren, who are on a slow rise, but on a definite rise. With a Mercedes PU next year and with Ric onboard, they would be more than handful for sure. Honda sure have to continue to be aggressive and innovative to keep Red Bull at the front and Red Bull have a steep road to catch and beat that Mercedes.

Don't know how many people share my feeling, but I feel Red Bull erred in letting James Key go. He is a very capable designer, who brought good success to Force India, Sauber and Toro Rosso. He should have been brought to Red Bull, instead of letting him go to a rival. I have a strong belief, he is going to do a great job for McLaren.

[Moore77]

So people still moaning about Honda? I thought they had a good race today

Car's race pace also good just eat tyres faster.

If it eats tyres faster, then it doesn't have a good race pace. Race pace is a compromise between speed and tyre life. An example is the Mercedes W04 (2013 car), which was rocket in qualifying and at the beginning of the race, but then it used to chew away tyres that caused them lose races where they got pole.

[Big Tea]

Then why are McLaren and Renault both a lap down?

Because their chassis is not as good as RBR’s (in the hands of Max to be more accurate)... It isn’t engine related.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That is true. I don't think Honda has the same ultimate grunt that Renault has. There is not a big margin, probably a tenth or max less than two tenths, purely on power. Renault's biggest problem was reliability, which was holding them back from unleashing full power. That is why their PUs were blowing up up until last year. This year so far, they seem to be holding up better and showing up decent performance.

Neither McLaren, nor Renault have as good a chassis as Red bull has, which is the big differentiating factor today. If McLaren spins up a chassis that could rival Red Bull, then Red Bull have their hands full to fight with McLaren, who are on a slow rise, but on a definite rise. With a Mercedes PU next year and with Ric onboard, they would be more than handful for sure. Honda sure have to continue to be aggressive and innovative to keep Red Bull at the front and Red Bull have a steep road to catch and beat that Mercedes.

Don't know how many people share my feeling, but I feel Red Bull erred in letting James Key go. He is a very capable designer, who brought good success to Force India, Sauber and Toro Rosso. He should have been brought to Red Bull, instead of letting him go to a rival. I have a strong belief, he is going to do a great job for McLaren.

It is not just the work he does not do for Red Bull, but the work he does do for competitors.

BTW, I think if Mclaren do a good job of the transplant, the new engine alone would give them 2-4 tenths in a part of the field where that means a couple of rows at start and positions at finish. If they can squeeze 1 or 2 more out they could be barking at Red bull in some races.

[Edax]

I am not sure who else is appreciating the behavior of Max Verstappen, but sure I am. He did the right thing in Silverstone2 and once again here, teaching his team where to focus on. In the end, he spoke highly of the result achieved today, given the performance difference. Well played Max.

Last comment was perhaps a bit too blunt for my liking. But on the other hand I don’t understand why RB didn’t take him in immediately. This guy is driving at 300+ km /hr on a strip of asphalt lined with barriers and is telling you that tires are gone. That seem hardly a position to question his judgement.

Anyway I like how he speaks up and shares responsibility. Much better than blindly following orders and blaming the team afterwards.

[etusch]

So people still moaning about Honda? I thought they had a good race today

Car's race pace also good just eat tyres faster.

If it eats tyres faster, then it doesn't have a good race pace. Race pace is a compromise between speed and tyre life. An example is the Mercedes W04 (2013 car), which was rocket in qualifying and at the beginning of the race, but then it used to chew away tyres that caused them lose races where they got pole.

I think you saw what I mean.
Fia made some rule changes for make cars capable to follow closely each other. But now they back themself for saving tyres. Whatever they touch it, it goes worse.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Probably because Suzie nor Valterri no longer were in Williams... The year Bottas and Massa drove Williams to p2 in the constructors championship was thanks to the engine and straight line speed. Mercedes had something like 7 years headstart on the hybrid tech I've read (that alone should be reason to clamp down on them). That Honda has surpassed the other two manufacturers and is mounting a challenge and threatens to almost always have all 4 cars in the top ten just goes to show their integrity and determination. It's a great time to be a RedBull Honda fan and looking forward to more wins.

Are you seriously suggesting Mercedes started working on their engines years before the specifications were even decided?

[Sieper]

If they put him on mediums the RP would have come in the next lap to cover him. They had to give white a try for the out of the box option. Vettel lasted 37 laps on red. Allthough on lower fuel offcourse.

The strategy they chose was not to wait a few more laps until he cleared the train, but to pit him directly into that train. The only reason to pit him that early (outside of deg no other car was suffering from) was to get access to his tyre data in time to make a calculated decision for Verstappen. Pitting him that early also made his remaining stints harder and meant that he would always lose out if there was a safety car. Plus, they put him on the much worse tyre. If they wanted to beat RP, then wait until you've cleared the train and try the Soft.

But, it's no slight on the team that his race was sacrificed to try and give Verstappen the best chance of the win. It's what he's there for and he's well paid to do it.

Good point, they could have waited until he cleared the train so the real reason must indeed to get race day tire data for the possibility of a one stopper for Max. Hadn’t considered that. I thought it was mostly because he was stuck behind the RPs.

[Sieper]

Probably because Suzie nor Valterri no longer were in Williams... The year Bottas and Massa drove Williams to p2 in the constructors championship was thanks to the engine and straight line speed. Mercedes had something like 7 years headstart on the hybrid tech I've read (that alone should be reason to clamp down on them). That Honda has surpassed the other two manufacturers and is mounting a challenge and threatens to almost always have all 4 cars in the top ten just goes to show their integrity and determination. It's a great time to be a RedBull Honda fan and looking forward to more wins.

Are you seriously suggesting Mercedes started working on their engines years before the specifications were even decided?

Mudflap, I know you are very well informed. They convinced Hamilton to make the step to Mercedes in 2012 already. I think they have showed him what they were building. Is it not a well known rumour Mercedes had a very big say in this new formula. I can understand from FIA even. They wanted Mercedes in the game. Mercedes and Ferrari are the 2 big names. With agreeing on that engine formula they got it. Mercedes is not building the largest team in F1 without some level of guarantee. They have spent billions. It is not “just” marketing budget for them. It is the viability of them as a premium car brand with racing heritage. Certainly to sell AMG (badged) cars. Which must be very profitable compared to the more normal specced cars. I don’t think it is such a big step to assume Mercedes started development of this engine as soon as they decided to reenter F1 as a works team.

[NL_Fer]

I am not sure who else is appreciating the behavior of Max Verstappen, but sure I am. He did the right thing in Silverstone2 and once again here, teaching his team where to focus on. In the end, he spoke highly of the result achieved today, given the performance difference. Well played Max.

Last comment was perhaps a bit too blunt for my liking. But on the other hand I don’t understand why RB didn’t take him in immediately. This guy is driving at 300+ km /hr on a strip of asphalt lined with barriers and is telling you that tires are gone. That seem hardly a position to question his judgement.

Anyway I like how he speaks up and shares responsibility. Much better than blindly following orders and blaming the team afterwards.

The team remembered 2016 when Max kept a much faster Kimi behind in this track. They were afraid of the same to happen with Max stuck behind the Force India’s.

[zibby43]

Probably because Suzie nor Valterri no longer were in Williams... The year Bottas and Massa drove Williams to p2 in the constructors championship was thanks to the engine and straight line speed. Mercedes had something like 7 years headstart on the hybrid tech I've read (that alone should be reason to clamp down on them). That Honda has surpassed the other two manufacturers and is mounting a challenge and threatens to almost always have all 4 cars in the top ten just goes to show their integrity and determination. It's a great time to be a RedBull Honda fan and looking forward to more wins.

Are you seriously suggesting Mercedes started working on their engines years before the specifications were even decided?

[63l8qrrfy6]

Probably because Suzie nor Valterri no longer were in Williams... The year Bottas and Massa drove Williams to p2 in the constructors championship was thanks to the engine and straight line speed. Mercedes had something like 7 years headstart on the hybrid tech I've read (that alone should be reason to clamp down on them). That Honda has surpassed the other two manufacturers and is mounting a challenge and threatens to almost always have all 4 cars in the top ten just goes to show their integrity and determination. It's a great time to be a RedBull Honda fan and looking forward to more wins.

Are you seriously suggesting Mercedes started working on their engines years before the specifications were even decided?

Mudflap, I know you are very well informed. They convinced Hamilton to make the step to Mercedes in 2012 already. I think they have showed him what they were building. Is it not a well known rumour Mercedes had a very big say in this new formula. I can understand from FIA even. They wanted Mercedes in the game. Mercedes and Ferrari are the 2 big names. With agreeing on that engine formula they got it. Mercedes is not building the largest team in F1 without some level of guarantee. They have spent billions. It is not “just” marketing budget for them. It is the viability of them as a premium car brand with racing heritage. Certainly to sell AMG (badged) cars. Which must be very profitable compared to the more normal specced cars. I don’t think it is such a big step to assume Mercedes started development of this engine as soon as they decided to reenter F1 as a works team.

With the risk of going off-topic - let's just put things into perspective.
In 2013 all manufacturers going full steam ahead designing the engines for the 2014 regulations.
7 years head start means Mercedes was working on the V6 turbo back in 2006, the same year the 2.4L V8 was introduced and 3 years before any electrification even came into the picture.
Let's also not forget that the turbo engines were initially meant to be inline 4 and a late change to v6 architecture was agreed on in 2013 at Ferrari's request.

What could Mercedes have been designing back in 2006 then ? Surely at that point diesel 2 strokes were just as plausible!

[Big Tea]

Probably because Suzie nor Valterri no longer were in Williams... The year Bottas and Massa drove Williams to p2 in the constructors championship was thanks to the engine and straight line speed. Mercedes had something like 7 years headstart on the hybrid tech I've read (that alone should be reason to clamp down on them). That Honda has surpassed the other two manufacturers and is mounting a challenge and threatens to almost always have all 4 cars in the top ten just goes to show their integrity and determination. It's a great time to be a RedBull Honda fan and looking forward to more wins.

Are you seriously suggesting Mercedes started working on their engines years before the specifications were even decided?

Mudflap, I know you are very well informed. They convinced Hamilton to make the step to Mercedes in 2012 already. I think they have showed him what they were building. Is it not a well known rumour Mercedes had a very big say in this new formula. I can understand from FIA even. They wanted Mercedes in the game. Mercedes and Ferrari are the 2 big names. With agreeing on that engine formula they got it. Mercedes is not building the largest team in F1 without some level of guarantee. They have spent billions. It is not “just” marketing budget for them. It is the viability of them as a premium car brand with racing heritage. Certainly to sell AMG (badged) cars. Which must be very profitable compared to the more normal specced cars. I don’t think it is such a big step to assume Mercedes started development of this engine as soon as they decided to reenter F1 as a works team.

But we have to ask yet again why none of the other teams did the same? There were no secrets, it was all sorted out in meetings with reps of everyone there (even those who never built the engines). Just as with today's race, Merc did a better job of it.

Apart from which after 3 major changes the others have had ample chance to catch up. Also, Honda were not competitors for a while and had NO limits to what they did, while Merc did. (not knocking honda, they were sidetracked, but there it is)

The might and experience of Ferrari and Renault unable to prepare first then catch later?
Not an excuse I see as valid