Honda leaving F1.

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gshevlin
gshevlin
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Joined: 23 Jun 2017, 19:33

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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I see the Honda decision to leave as driven by several factors:

1. The promised simplification of the power unit rules (removal of the MGU-H and other changes) was abandoned after other PU suppliers objected. Honda cited the ongoing cost as an issue with their participation. The cost base of the PUs is still too high, even though they are amazingly impressive engineering solutions.
2. The Covid Freeze severely impacted the Honda delivery path this season, because it seems that they have several performance improvements that they could have implemented this season, but they are not able to introduce them until 2021
3. The current F1 PU rules are not futuristic enough for Honda to be able to justify participation on an R&D basis. Honda's statement makes it clear that they want to funnel a lot more money to EV and fuel cell research in the next 10 years, and the PU rules in F1 are still too focussed on ICE-derived power and energy reclamation.

Once again, we see the "in out in out" nature of major manufacturer participation in F1. This the fourth time Honda has entered and exited F1.
I doubt that Honda will be interested in selling the IP of their power unit to another supplier. They always like to keep R&D in-house. The only time they passed IP to another entity, it was to Mugen.
As for who gets to supply Red Bull and Alpha Tauri - a "cat, meet pigeons" scenario. The rules could oblige Renault to supply both Red Bull and AT again after 2021, if no other manufacturer can be persuaded to supply the teams. I cannot see Red Bull and Renault working together after their previous toxic working relationship. AT and Renault, maybe.
As has been pointed out, Renault might elect to withdraw rather than work with Red Bull again. Somewhere along the line, that bridge was burned comprehensively. Who is most to blame is another question, but when two parties fall out, usually there is blame on both sides.
Ultimately, the exit of Honda is an indictment of the F1 direction taken with the PU rules from 2014 which were focussed on tempting major auto manufacturers, who wrote the rules for themselves (such as insisting on a V6 ICE when the original proposal was for a 4 cylinder ICE), and the resulting R&D costs meant that no specialist independent supplier could afford to play (PURE tried, but could not get funding). So now F1 is down to 3 suppliers.
Major series can run with 2 suppliers (see Super Formula in Japan, which has Honda and Toyota), but the rules are written to define much simpler PU configurations which keep engine supplier costs down (same as in Indycar, whose PU is very basic compared to the current F1 PUs).

Fulcrum
Fulcrum
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Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 18:05

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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I think the world is changing a lot faster than F1 bargained for when they installed the current engine regulations.

The FOM need to take this decision as a warning sign the sport risks becoming technically irrelevant.

I'd personally be more interested in a hydrogen-powered engine than battery EVs, but allowing unlimited development in either field would be far more relevant to the world at large than the current engine is.

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Fulcrum wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 18:19
I think the world is changing a lot faster than F1 bargained for when they installed the current engine regulations.

The FOM need to take this decision as a warning sign the sport risks becoming technically irrelevant.

I'd personally be more interested in a hydrogen-powered engine than battery EVs, but allowing unlimited development in either field would be far more relevant to the world at large than the current engine is.
As I said earlier, there needs to be an an equivalency formula for several types of drive.
Now its V6 4T ice fixed cc and limited recovery and use 'old style fuels.

If that is not what you are working on, you are not interested.
A company can not enter with a 4cyl hybrid or even a hydrogen motor let alone an exotic unit like 500cc (equivalent) ice and electric drive.

I expect all the makers (except possibly Ferrari, and they will soon) wold rise to the challenge.
This, in conjunction with the cost cap would be an ideal reason for all the makers to have a 'B' team to test the water before committing to one type.

Imagine if there had not been a turbo equivalent formula inthe original regs?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Pany
Pany
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Joined: 09 Mar 2016, 10:26

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Maybe they leave because they were deceived by redbul car performances?

Fulcrum
Fulcrum
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Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 18:05

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Big Tea wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 18:45
Fulcrum wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 18:19
I think the world is changing a lot faster than F1 bargained for when they installed the current engine regulations.

The FOM need to take this decision as a warning sign the sport risks becoming technically irrelevant.

I'd personally be more interested in a hydrogen-powered engine than battery EVs, but allowing unlimited development in either field would be far more relevant to the world at large than the current engine is.
As I said earlier, there needs to be an an equivalency formula for several types of drive.
Now its V6 4T ice fixed cc and limited recovery and use 'old style fuels.

If that is not what you are working on, you are not interested.
A company can not enter with a 4cyl hybrid or even a hydrogen motor let alone an exotic unit like 500cc (equivalent) ice and electric drive.

I expect all the makers (except possibly Ferrari, and they will soon) wold rise to the challenge.
This, in conjunction with the cost cap would be an ideal reason for all the makers to have a 'B' team to test the water before committing to one type.

Imagine if there had not been a turbo equivalent formula inthe original regs?
Nice in theory, but this is F1. Teams don't agree with each other as a matter of principle over the pettiest details. How in the hell are the FOM/FIA going to get an equivalency formula ratified?

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Pany wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 18:56
Maybe they leave because they were deceived by redbul car performances?
Whole field might as well just quit then. =D> =D> =D>

rogazilla
rogazilla
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Joined: 05 Oct 2017, 16:35

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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they could have just say '100 kg' of fuel per race. Now go and build a PU. Then if you want to improve the efficiency just say every season the allowed fuel is 5kg less. I think that'd attract a lot of engine makers to jump in?

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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JordanMugen wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 17:55
Zynerji wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 17:43
Why wouldn't RBT just buy the Honda IP, and have them built/developed in house or by Illmore or Cosworth?
Because the IP contains Honda commercial and technical secrets. The IP may flow to Mugen but likely not further than that...
I doubt that. The only hold-up I could see is if Honda wanted to immediately implement this technology into their road cars, and RBT wouldn't want it to be made public.

There were several atricles diring the V8 era where RBR actually made their own updates to the Renault engine. I could see them making the play for the Honda IP.

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Schuttelberg
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Joined: 27 Jul 2015, 12:02

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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This is terrible news. People are rejoicing about Red Bull being in a soup but they could follow Honda. This also means that 2021 is a foregone conclusion and perhaps even 2022 and beyond.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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This is what I gather from Honda :

We got wins that prove we can compete with the best in power units. No WDC but Chassis be damned!

The engineers have learned a great deal but regs will be frozen. Not much else to learn in F1. These engineers are better served to future plans.

Bring the engine home into our labs and we will tinker as much as we want with hydrogen or whatvever fuels we like. We do not want to play with F1 silly sporting regs anymore.

F1 is costing us too much money. (see indycar is burning a hole in the ozone layer and killing baby seals... But it's cheap! And very visible in our target market!)
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basti313
basti313
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Joined: 22 Feb 2014, 14:49

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Schuttelberg wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 19:37
This is terrible news. People are rejoicing about Red Bull being in a soup but they could follow Honda. This also means that 2021 is a foregone conclusion and perhaps even 2022 and beyond.
Yes, it was clear, that something is going on when RedBull only signed the new contract with the right to withdraw every season.
Don`t russel the hamster!

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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basti313 wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 20:24
Schuttelberg wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 19:37
This is terrible news. People are rejoicing about Red Bull being in a soup but they could follow Honda. This also means that 2021 is a foregone conclusion and perhaps even 2022 and beyond.
Yes, it was clear, that something is going on when RedBull only signed the new contract with the right to withdraw every season.
A new US based spec series based upon the RB16 with the Honda engine might be fabulous. Especially in the US if the engines were branded as Honda and Acura to give the illusion of 2 different engines.

Since racing in general, and F1 for sure are viewed as marketing exercises, they could even go back to the Honda V10/V8 for such an endeavor to keep cost/complexity way down.

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coaster
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 05:10

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Honda did sell the 1990 V12 to Mugen, it was a 3.5 litre V12 design cut down to a 3 litre V10, a 2 cylinder chop. It was short lived as it evolved into Mugens own design. Hondas reentry meant 2 parallel engine developments which was promptly ended.

notsofast
notsofast
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Joined: 10 Oct 2012, 02:56

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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It might not be a bad idea for Mercedes to ditch Williams and supply Red Bull instead from 2022. Mercedes might not want to be seen as going backwards when Hamilton retires. Perhaps it makes sense for them to want to be a dominant supplier of engines, without a works team.

Alternatively, Mercedes might decide that they've accomplished everything they wanted and leave the sport. Fast forward the movie, and F1 and Ferrari will be one and the same...

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Honda leaving F1.

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could redbull BUY the honda engine and project? and make them themselves?
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"