Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

[adrianjordan]

I think what Mr. Tea means is not “inexperienced” - he has had 6 years in.

But he does not have a vast knowledge/awareness. Everything he does/knows now, other than learning from simracing/competitors on track he has learnt from within the system.

For example bringing in an outside eye could help with “wait why arent you doing this?” And suddenly the whole team hust goes... “err.. we never thought of that. This has just always been how we do things.”

Seb and Dan were experienced but of the same ilk. They did not have that exposure.

That makes sense.

[basti313]

I think what Mr. Tea means is not “inexperienced” - he has had 6 years in.

.....

Seb and Dan were experienced but of the same ilk. They did not have that exposure.

Whatever Mr. Tea means, thank you for bringinge Ric and Vet into the discussion. We can now change to the usual Jing Jang and bring Hamilton into the game if you anyways discuss some nonsense?

[DChemTech]

I think what Mr. Tea means is not “inexperienced” - he has had 6 years in.

But he does not have a vast knowledge/awareness. Everything he does/knows now, other than learning from simracing/competitors on track he has learnt from within the system.

For example bringing in an outside eye could help with “wait why arent you doing this?” And suddenly the whole team hust goes... “err.. we never thought of that. This has just always been how we do things.”

Seb and Dan were experienced but of the same ilk. They did not have that exposure.

That makes sense.

It does, and it is one of the big drawbacks that Red Bull has laid upon themselves with their reluctance of hiring 'external' drivers (even if their own stock of good options ran out). Maybe there's a correlation - Mark Webber was the last 'external' driver they hired, and he was their at the kickstart of RB dominance. I am absolutely not implying he was key to that dominance, but it could well be that lack of an outsider perspective every now and then did help in their relative 'decline', or inability to truly counter that decline and get on par with Mercedes earlier on.

[basti313]

My only curiosity is Albon surely they might change him out for next season he's had time to settle into the Redbull and he just stays at a mediocre level and Maybe he was brought up too soon maybe they should send him to Alfa Tauri with Gasly.

RedBull needs a strong number 2 driver.
Perez and Hulk sound like strong enough driver's to join Redbull.
It's just poor Albon can't get his --- together.

Like in every sports...you simply not sack subsequently the same position. If you sack the position once, it is clear that a second sack will not solve the situation. They did it with Gasly, no way they send Albon down. And given the Thai background I highly doubt they sack him at all.
They need to develop the car to help him. Helping Albon with the handling will also help Max. The car is awful if you compare it with the Merc. Once the car is handling well, the Q times will be close again.

[Morteza]

[Schuttelberg]

Max is a seasoned racer a couple years ago he was making little mistakes here and there and at times losing his head in situations where he was facing a thought opponent. Hes learned and grown and experience has given him more control. You can NOT say Max has very little experience. Mr. Tea. But yeah a solid driver along Max would be good for the teams coming years.

This is something that really gets me ticking. ALL drivers make mistakes almost every season. Some are magnified by lack of results which generally is a consequence of having a difficult car while those with better cars can mask those mistakes with results.

Also, expectations and perceptions play a massive role. I've seen a few from the anti Hamilton brigade relentlessly pick up on Monza with the pit lane being closed or the one in Austria where he punted Albon off. These guys are not politicians with months and months of prep before making moves. It happens in an instant and every driver that's had a career spanning half a decade will have these mistakes.

One must also not forget that Red Bull and Ferrari drivers in comparison to Mercedes have always been chasing the tail of the cat for a while and therefore when the machinery doesn't allow it, the driver tries to compensate for it and thus will go over the cliff sometimes. Case in point is Brazil last year where it was apparent that Max had some margin on Lewis and therefore the latter was always chasing the tail of the cat. Thus, some errors.

The second thing to remember is the environment a driver is in. Red Bull juniors seem to always be on the chopping block and because it's a competitive car the second seat is always under a huge microscope. We ignore the fact that he's up against Verstappen who's been in the team for 5 seasons now and could basically do this in his sleep. He has no pressure on him as he's expected to finish behind the Mercs and there is nobody behind to realistically challenge the podium if all things remain equal. A bit like Vettel in the 2015 Ferrari.
Speaking of Vettel, just look at the free fall he is in. He's gone from dominating Raikkonen in the same car to barely beating him every weekend in a very superior car. Has he forgotten how to use his right foot? Less than a year ago, he was winning races and putting the car on pole on very challenging tracks?

My honest opinion is that F1 fans refuse to isolate patches/years from drivers. They are not robots. A constant theme is that if X beat Y in 2009 and Y beat Z in 2013 then X must be better than Z in 2015. It doesn't work like that. Circumstances change, environments change, form dips and surges. Hamilton in 2011 and Hamilton in 2018 if put under the same crash helmet would have passed as two different drivers in all eyes. One size fits all simply doesn't work. Not in sport. Not in life.

[tangodjango]

Max is a seasoned racer a couple years ago he was making little mistakes here and there and at times losing his head in situations where he was facing a thought opponent. Hes learned and grown and experience has given him more control. You can NOT say Max has very little experience. Mr. Tea. But yeah a solid driver along Max would be good for the teams coming years.

This is something that really gets me ticking. ALL drivers make mistakes almost every season. Some are magnified by lack of results which generally is a consequence of having a difficult car while those with better cars can mask those mistakes with results.

Also, expectations and perceptions play a massive role. I've seen a few from the anti Hamilton brigade relentlessly pick up on Monza with the pit lane being closed or the one in Austria where he punted Albon off. These guys are not politicians with months and months of prep before making moves. It happens in an instant and every driver that's had a career spanning half a decade will have these mistakes.

One must also not forget that Red Bull and Ferrari drivers in comparison to Mercedes have always been chasing the tail of the cat for a while and therefore when the machinery doesn't allow it, the driver tries to compensate for it and thus will go over the cliff sometimes. Case in point is Brazil last year where it was apparent that Max had some margin on Lewis and therefore the latter was always chasing the tail of the cat. Thus, some errors.

The second thing to remember is the environment a driver is in. Red Bull juniors seem to always be on the chopping block and because it's a competitive car the second seat is always under a huge microscope. We ignore the fact that he's up against Verstappen who's been in the team for 5 seasons now and could basically do this in his sleep. He has no pressure on him as he's expected to finish behind the Mercs and there is nobody behind to realistically challenge the podium if all things remain equal. A bit like Vettel in the 2015 Ferrari.
Speaking of Vettel, just look at the free fall he is in. He's gone from dominating Raikkonen in the same car to barely beating him every weekend in a very superior car. Has he forgotten how to use his right foot? Less than a year ago, he was winning races and putting the car on pole on very challenging tracks?

My honest opinion is that F1 fans refuse to isolate patches/years from drivers. They are not robots. A constant theme is that if X beat Y in 2009 and Y beat Z in 2013 then X must be better than Z in 2015. It doesn't work like that. Circumstances change, environments change, form dips and surges. Hamilton in 2011 and Hamilton in 2018 if put under the same crash helmet would have passed as two different drivers in all eyes. One size fits all simply doesn't work. Not in sport. Not in life.

Yeah I largely agree the exception probably being Alonso apart from 2008-2009, I always wonder how he and Schumacher stayed so incredibly consistent for so long. Right now you can tell Hamilton is barely turning up and having to perform at anywhere near 80% and still walking away with it. Probably will stay that way till 2022.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think what Mr. Tea means is not “inexperienced” - he has had 6 years in.

But he does not have a vast knowledge/awareness. Everything he does/knows now, other than learning from simracing/competitors on track he has learnt from within the system.

For example bringing in an outside eye could help with “wait why arent you doing this?” And suddenly the whole team hust goes... “err.. we never thought of that. This has just always been how we do things.”

Seb and Dan were experienced but of the same ilk. They did not have that exposure.

OK So you mean Max is not as exposed. He is very sheltered and protected.

[Big Tea]

I think what Mr. Tea means is not “inexperienced” - he has had 6 years in.

But he does not have a vast knowledge/awareness. Everything he does/knows now, other than learning from simracing/competitors on track he has learnt from within the system.

For example bringing in an outside eye could help with “wait why arent you doing this?” And suddenly the whole team hust goes... “err.. we never thought of that. This has just always been how we do things.”

Seb and Dan were experienced but of the same ilk. They did not have that exposure.

OK So you mean Max is not as exposed. He is very sheltered and protected.

But by the same reasoning again, that is the only way he knows. It is all he has experienced.

It is good for him now, but how would he react if for instance he went to Renault with Alonso?

If you have nothing to compare your present predicament to, how do you know how it stands in the rest of the world?

[Schuttelberg]

Max is a seasoned racer a couple years ago he was making little mistakes here and there and at times losing his head in situations where he was facing a thought opponent. Hes learned and grown and experience has given him more control. You can NOT say Max has very little experience. Mr. Tea. But yeah a solid driver along Max would be good for the teams coming years.

This is something that really gets me ticking. ALL drivers make mistakes almost every season. Some are magnified by lack of results which generally is a consequence of having a difficult car while those with better cars can mask those mistakes with results.

Also, expectations and perceptions play a massive role. I've seen a few from the anti Hamilton brigade relentlessly pick up on Monza with the pit lane being closed or the one in Austria where he punted Albon off. These guys are not politicians with months and months of prep before making moves. It happens in an instant and every driver that's had a career spanning half a decade will have these mistakes.

One must also not forget that Red Bull and Ferrari drivers in comparison to Mercedes have always been chasing the tail of the cat for a while and therefore when the machinery doesn't allow it, the driver tries to compensate for it and thus will go over the cliff sometimes. Case in point is Brazil last year where it was apparent that Max had some margin on Lewis and therefore the latter was always chasing the tail of the cat. Thus, some errors.

The second thing to remember is the environment a driver is in. Red Bull juniors seem to always be on the chopping block and because it's a competitive car the second seat is always under a huge microscope. We ignore the fact that he's up against Verstappen who's been in the team for 5 seasons now and could basically do this in his sleep. He has no pressure on him as he's expected to finish behind the Mercs and there is nobody behind to realistically challenge the podium if all things remain equal. A bit like Vettel in the 2015 Ferrari.
Speaking of Vettel, just look at the free fall he is in. He's gone from dominating Raikkonen in the same car to barely beating him every weekend in a very superior car. Has he forgotten how to use his right foot? Less than a year ago, he was winning races and putting the car on pole on very challenging tracks?

My honest opinion is that F1 fans refuse to isolate patches/years from drivers. They are not robots. A constant theme is that if X beat Y in 2009 and Y beat Z in 2013 then X must be better than Z in 2015. It doesn't work like that. Circumstances change, environments change, form dips and surges. Hamilton in 2011 and Hamilton in 2018 if put under the same crash helmet would have passed as two different drivers in all eyes. One size fits all simply doesn't work. Not in sport. Not in life.

Yeah I largely agree the exception probably being Alonso apart from 2008-2009, I always wonder how he and Schumacher stayed so incredibly consistent for so long. Right now you can tell Hamilton is barely turning up and having to perform at anywhere near 80% and still walking away with it. Probably will stay that way till 2022.

Just because Lewis doesn't blow his own trumpet? If you are to believe Fred, he's a racing god. He's a legend, yes but he's not some god as he proclaims to be. Lewis is vastly under appreciated and under rated and his value will be realised once he leaves. He's performing at a remarkable level and I don't agree with the 80% stuff. He's making Bottas look like a grandma to be honest.

Schumacher had a remarkable time in the 90's but nothing he did in the 00's is something I don't see Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso unable to do. All three in my opinion had an outstanding 2012 and that's about as good as it gets to be honest.

[Phil]

I know he makes Bottas look ordinary, but Bottas is so close in qualifying that if he were to consistently outqualify Hamilton (like Rosberg could), his chances to win more races would be exponentially higher and could even result in a WDC. If he were to beat Hamilton in QF more often, I'm sure he'd rattle Hamilton eventually. Even if Hamilton has better race pace, that won't guarantee you wins, as overtaking is track and delta dependent and the lead driver also gets strategy priority...

[ab_f1]

I think what Mr. Tea means is not “inexperienced” - he has had 6 years in.

But he does not have a vast knowledge/awareness. Everything he does/knows now, other than learning from simracing/competitors on track he has learnt from within the system.

For example bringing in an outside eye could help with “wait why arent you doing this?” And suddenly the whole team hust goes... “err.. we never thought of that. This has just always been how we do things.”

Seb and Dan were experienced but of the same ilk. They did not have that exposure.

OK So you mean Max is not as exposed. He is very sheltered and protected.

But by the same reasoning again, that is the only way he knows. It is all he has experienced.

It is good for him now, but how would he react if for instance he went to Renault with Alonso?

If you have nothing to compare your present predicament to, how do you know how it stands in the rest of the world?

Further his ability to workaround the issues to find problem may be hampering development. In one of the interviews Nico Rosberg mentioned, that during initial time with Michael at Mercedes, he was completely ignored by engineers for feedback.
Point I am trying to make is that if Red Bull are ignoring some underlying issues simply because Max does not see it as problem but it does hamper development of the car.

So agree, fresh eyes from outside may help.

[Schuttelberg]

I know he makes Bottas look ordinary, but Bottas is so close in qualifying that if he were to consistently outqualify Hamilton (like Rosberg could), his chances to win more races would be exponentially higher and could even result in a WDC. If he were to beat Hamilton in QF more often, I'm sure he'd rattle Hamilton eventually. Even if Hamilton has better race pace, that won't guarantee you wins, as overtaking is track and delta dependent and the lead driver also gets strategy priority...

Bottas is not close in qualifying. Rosberg was. Neither of Rosberg or Bottas are a patch on Hamilton in race trim. Not in terms of speed, not in terms of management and wheel to wheel racing is another universe in comparison to both. However, Rosberg could hold his own 7/8 times out of 10 once he went past turn 1 in the lead. Bottas is just the epitome of poor in that regard. He simply has no speed, lacks management and he wilts like candles when they're wheel to wheel. Rosberg was clumsy in 2016, but he grew a pair. Also, Rosberg always secured long term contracts which gave him some leverage with the team. Bottas is always squabbling for a contract and his desperation is evident.

I also don't think that overtaking guys like Rosberg or Bottas is that difficult. Once you put it in the DRS zone, you can simply muscle them out. Another critical advantage for Hamilton is that because his management is so superior to Bottas, he can always use the alternate strategy when behind and make it work. The gap was not so big with Rosberg so while Hamilton always kept Rosberg in check, it was by no means a walkover.

I love how people will bring up stats and say "oh Bottas has won this many races and poles." Look at how many the other driver has. All drivers get out qualified and not win races sometimes like with Hamilton. Who is then in the best possible position to win? Rosberg maximised Hamilton's misfortunes or bad days while Bottas is barely managing to edge Verstappen in perhaps the most dominant Mercedes and F1 car of all time. It says a lot about him.

[Racer X]

https://twitter.com/autosport/status/13 ... 7246470144

Thats great i just have one question....

Is Albon safe because hes the same nationality as the Majority owners of RedBull?

[basti313]

I know he makes Bottas look ordinary, but Bottas is so close in qualifying that if he were to consistently outqualify Hamilton (like Rosberg could), his chances to win more races would be exponentially higher and could even result in a WDC. If he were to beat Hamilton in QF more often, I'm sure he'd rattle Hamilton eventually. Even if Hamilton has better race pace, that won't guarantee you wins, as overtaking is track and delta dependent and the lead driver also gets strategy priority...

That is simply the handling of the car. If they were in the Ferrari, there would be miles between them just like with Lec vs. Vet now.
Vet had the same in the RedBull. He dominated Web once the car got a bit more difficult, with a perfectly settled car, they were very equal.
Also Ham had this with Ros. In seasons where the car was not that excellent in handling, he dominated. Especially at the season openers this was always visible. Once they had sorted the car, Ros was strong.

If you look at the Q laps, the current Merc is not moving at all...no understeer, no oversteer, no corrections. How should that lead to a difference amongst the top drivers of the world? It always comes down to a missed breaking point in this car.