Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[Kingshark]

]
What barometer have you used to measure this claim? Being beaten by his team mate?

Vettel has 14 wins in the hybrid era that puts him with 3rd most wins.
He is the only other driver other non Mercedes works driver to lead the world championship in the this era.

If you say he has not adapted to the hybrid era, then no other driver has except only 3 drivers all are Mercedes works drivers.

His shocking performances against Ricciardo and Leclerc in the same car.

Vettel having the third most wins in the hybrid era is mainly down to the fact that the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari cars are the best non-Mercedes cars build in the hybrid era.

[grubschumi13]

]
What barometer have you used to measure this claim? Being beaten by his team mate?

Vettel has 14 wins in the hybrid era that puts him with 3rd most wins.
He is the only other driver other non Mercedes works driver to lead the world championship in the this era.

If you say he has not adapted to the hybrid era, then no other driver has except only 3 drivers all are Mercedes works drivers.

His shocking performances against Ricciardo and Leclerc in the same car.

Vettel having the third most wins in the hybrid era is mainly down to the fact that the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari cars are the best non-Mercedes cars build in the hybrid era.

So 2 seasons define his entire hybrid era?

Vettel having the third most wins in the hybrid era is mainly down to the fact that the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari cars are the best non-Mercedes cars build in the hybrid era.

Can this logic also be applied to Hamilton's 74 race wins, or does it only hold true when speaking of Vettel?

With this same logic then, Bottas sudden adapted to they hybrid era in 2017 when he joined Mercedes.

Russell suddenly adapted to the hybrid era when he drove the W11 in Sakhir and then forgot how hybrid formula works in Abu Dhabi.

How are you measuring whether a driver has adapted or not to the hybrid era? If you can explain that then perhaps I can understand.

[NathanOlder]

You are the definition of a hypocrite. Condemn Ferrari team orders and call for them to be banned and fined and yet in the same breath bend over backwards to justify Mercedes team orders.

Excuse me? Where have I condemned Team Orders? Its a team game, teams can do as they please. I wish Merc would do the same, that way Lewis would be winning 15 races a year.

So please don't talk rubbish and start calling me a hypocrite.

[dans79]

I will always use the very low and mediocre competition from 2014-2021 as an argument against Hamilton’s greatness, it’s too obvious to ignore. The lack of competition at the top in this era has been truly shocking and at an all-time low.

Well I'll give you one thing, you've made your opinion/bias blatantly obvious.

[Just_a_fan]

Damn, I've run out of popcorn!

[ringo]

Started of as a good post but became pretty one sided in the end imho, so here's a little context from a non Fanboy pov.

Other drivers are hard workers too and while Hamilton definitely went up against some great drivers as team mates, Vettel had to face some hard opposition as well, so I don’t understand why people seem to feel the need to discredit Vettel's accomplishments and paint Hamilton as a god amongst men.

Alonso
Button
Rosberg
Bottas

vs.

Webber
Ricciardo
Räikkönen
Leclerc

Looks pretty even to me, no?

Uhmmm... No!

Vettel faced an aged and unfocused Raikonen who was didn't mind being No.2.
Webber, was a #2 by force even though he tried his best to fight it. Always getting the short end of the stick with new parts and upgrades.
Also Webber was not the best competition in term of talent in those V8 days. Quickler less error prone drivers were on the grid then. Also Webber was nearing retirement.
Ricciardo... not much experience at the time when he beat Vettel. This car was pretty much is first fast car, coming from HRT and Torro Rosso. Little or no experience running at the front. Talented guy, but wasn't as good as he is today.
Leclerc very talented but a newby to the sport, still learning his way.
Vettel had no business being challenged by any of these guys. None of them were anywhere near complete when Vettel faced them. Webber was the only one at the peak of his powers.


As for Hamilton... No introduction necessary to his competition. All in their peaks. Defending champions, and champion slayers all of them with the exception of prodigies: Kovaleinen and Bottas.

[Phil]

I will always use the very low and mediocre competition from 2014-2021 as an argument against Hamilton’s greatness, it’s too obvious to ignore. The lack of competition at the top in this era has been truly shocking and at an all-time low.

Kingshark,

Here’s a tough one for you:

If by your account, Hamilton’s “lack of competition” is a valid argument against his success/greateness, with which argument do you judge any other driver (presumably Verstappen) to be greater?

His performance against Sainz? Gasly? ...Albon?

Seems like what you are attributing against Hamilton holds even more true using any other driver on the grid.

[Kingshark]

I will always use the very low and mediocre competition from 2014-2021 as an argument against Hamilton’s greatness, it’s too obvious to ignore. The lack of competition at the top in this era has been truly shocking and at an all-time low.

Kingshark,

Here’s a tough one for you:

If by your account, Hamilton’s “lack of competition” is a valid argument against his success/greateness, with which argument do you judge any other driver (presumably Verstappen) to be greater?

His performance against Sainz? Gasly? ...Albon?

Seems like what you are attributing against Hamilton holds even more true using any other driver on the grid.

You are confusing form with legacy.

Verstappen has been in more impressive form than Hamilton since the beginning of 2019, in my opinion, but he’s obviously nowhere near Hamilton on an all-time list yet. Vettel is ahead of Verstappen on an all-time list despite being miles worse than Verstappen in the last two years.

He’s only just turned 23 years old. The story of Verstappen is get to be written. If Verstappen can win multiple titles in an era where Leclerc and Russell are actually in competitive machinery, instead of handicapped by vastly inferior cars, then he’s a bigger legend than Hamilton in my book. His titles will be worth more.

[Kingshark]

I will always use the very low and mediocre competition from 2014-2021 as an argument against Hamilton’s greatness, it’s too obvious to ignore. The lack of competition at the top in this era has been truly shocking and at an all-time low.

Well I'll give you one thing, you've made your opinion/bias blatantly obvious.

Schumacher’s achievements are diminished all the time because of low competition in his era, so I don’t see a reason why Hamilton should be treated any differently.

Although Hamilton’s case is different. It’s not that 2014-2021 has lacked elite talent, the problem is that most of the elite talent has been stuck with mediocre machinery. This means that the competition at the front has been extremely weak.

[Phil]

The problem Kingshark, is that you have no way of arguing factually that Verstappen is on “more impressive” form, as there is no way to gauge him. You may believe he is better than Bottas and “more worthy” but in reality there is zero evidence to support that. One could even call it a myth.

The only evidence there is is that he is probably slightly faster than Riccardo and a lot better than Gasly and Albon. He has never raced against Bottas in an equal car, so arguing one is more worthy than the other for a Mercedes seat is simply a matter of opinion at this point.

[Kingshark]

The problem Kingshark, is that you have no way of arguing factually that Verstappen is on “more impressive” form, as there is no way to gauge him. You may believe he is better than Bottas and “more worthy” but in reality there is zero evidence to support that. One could even call it a myth.

The only evidence there is is that he is probably slightly faster than Riccardo and a lot better than Gasly and Albon. He has never raced against Bottas in an equal car, so arguing one is more worthy than the other for a Mercedes seat is simply a matter of opinion at this point.

The cross comparisons point to Verstappen being a faster driver than Hamilton, although admittedly the chains are actually quite long. Perez in 2021 will give us a better indicator of how fast Verstappen is relative to Hamilton. I believe that Hamilton has 0.259% on Perez in qualifying speed using Button as a benchmark.

I know that cross comparisons between teammates are far from an accurate indicator of driver ability, but they are still better than anything else we have available to us.

On another note, Ricciardo has been comfortably faster than every teammate he's ever raced against apart from Verstappen, who had 0.200% on Ricciardo by 2018.

Anyway, I am patiently waiting for 2021. Perez will give us many key clues.

[Jolle]

The problem Kingshark, is that you have no way of arguing factually that Verstappen is on “more impressive” form, as there is no way to gauge him. You may believe he is better than Bottas and “more worthy” but in reality there is zero evidence to support that. One could even call it a myth.

The only evidence there is is that he is probably slightly faster than Riccardo and a lot better than Gasly and Albon. He has never raced against Bottas in an equal car, so arguing one is more worthy than the other for a Mercedes seat is simply a matter of opinion at this point.

The cross comparisons point to Verstappen being a faster driver than Hamilton, although admittedly the chains are actually quite long. Perez in 2021 will give us a better indicator of how fast Verstappen is relative to Hamilton. I believe that Hamilton has 0.259% on Perez in qualifying speed using Button as a benchmark.

I know that cross comparisons between teammates are far from an accurate indicator of driver ability, but they are still better than anything else we have available to us.

On another note, Ricciardo has been comfortably faster than every teammate he's ever raced against apart from Verstappen, who had 0.200% on Ricciardo by 2018.

Anyway, I am patiently waiting for 2021. Perez will give us many key clues.

Uhm... you know right that’s like, 8 years ago?

[Kingshark]

The problem Kingshark, is that you have no way of arguing factually that Verstappen is on “more impressive” form, as there is no way to gauge him. You may believe he is better than Bottas and “more worthy” but in reality there is zero evidence to support that. One could even call it a myth.

The only evidence there is is that he is probably slightly faster than Riccardo and a lot better than Gasly and Albon. He has never raced against Bottas in an equal car, so arguing one is more worthy than the other for a Mercedes seat is simply a matter of opinion at this point.

The cross comparisons point to Verstappen being a faster driver than Hamilton, although admittedly the chains are actually quite long. Perez in 2021 will give us a better indicator of how fast Verstappen is relative to Hamilton. I believe that Hamilton has 0.259% on Perez in qualifying speed using Button as a benchmark.

I know that cross comparisons between teammates are far from an accurate indicator of driver ability, but they are still better than anything else we have available to us.

On another note, Ricciardo has been comfortably faster than every teammate he's ever raced against apart from Verstappen, who had 0.200% on Ricciardo by 2018.

Anyway, I am patiently waiting for 2021. Perez will give us many key clues.

Uhm... you know right that’s like, 8 years ago?

Yes, and what’s your point?

[aMessageToCharlie]

The problem Kingshark, is that you have no way of arguing factually that Verstappen is on “more impressive” form, as there is no way to gauge him. You may believe he is better than Bottas and “more worthy” but in reality there is zero evidence to support that. One could even call it a myth.

The only evidence there is is that he is probably slightly faster than Riccardo and a lot better than Gasly and Albon. He has never raced against Bottas in an equal car, so arguing one is more worthy than the other for a Mercedes seat is simply a matter of opinion at this point.

Exactly. And it holds true exactly the same for Hamilton.

You may believe he is better than driver x and “more worthy” but in reality there is zero evidence to support that. One could even call it a myth.

That's why people need to calm down a bit with the talking up of his achievements and discrediting those of others. It feels like this is welovelewishamilton.net and anybody who has any other opinion than that Hamilton is a flawless demigod gets labled a hater and causes anger within the fan club.

[Kingshark]

Here’s another crazy statistic:

Mercedes 2014-2020 have won more races than Ferrari 2000-2004 and Red Bull 2010-2013 combined.

102 vs 98

There is no doubt whatsoever that 2014-2021 is the least competitive period in Formula 1 history. The fact that Rosberg is still the second most winning driver since 2014 shows just what a joke this era has been.