Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[Just_a_fan]

One can only compare team mates. Anything else is hand waving and fan boy rubbish.

You absolutely can not compare Max and Lewis just as you can't compare Michael and Mika, or Michael and Senna.

Even comparing team mates who have had a common team mates is impossible. Or are we all happy that Lewis beat Nico who beat Michael easily therefore Lewis would beat Michael easily?

It's all noise and the world is already noisy enough.

[dans79]

Schumacher’s achievements are diminished all the time because of low competition in his era, so I don’t see a reason why Hamilton should be treated any differently.

I don't know who you have been talking with, but the people that I know that don't hold schumi in high regard, do so because of tactics he used throughout his career not the competition he faced. Even as a schumi fan I found some of his tactics distasteful.

you said

I will always use the very low and mediocre competition from 2014-2021 as an argument against Hamilton’s greatness,

That reads like no matter what he does over the rest of his career, I'm going to beat him down with this point. It's not a good look!

In 2017 Bottas finished 3rd behind Vettel, even though vettel had more non-points scoring finished. 1 vs 2

in 2018 Bottas finished 5th,
Ham - 1 non-points scoring finish
Vettel - 1 non-points scoring finish
Kimi - 4 non-points scoring finish
Max - 4 non-points scoring finish
Bottas - 2 non-points scoring finish

Both years suggest the Mercedes was not as dominant as some people want to make it sound. It also points to the fact the driver played a more significant role than some want to admit to.

[Zynerji]

Schumacher’s achievements are diminished all the time because of low competition in his era, so I don’t see a reason why Hamilton should be treated any differently.

I don't know who you have been talking with, but the people that I know that don't hold schumi in high regard, do so because of tactics he used throughout his career not the competition he faced. Even as a schumi fan I found some of his tactics distasteful.

you said

I will always use the very low and mediocre competition from 2014-2021 as an argument against Hamilton’s greatness,

That reads like no matter what he does over the rest of his career, I'm going to beat him down with this point. It's not a good look!

In 2017 Bottas finished 3rd behind Vettel, even though vettel had more non-points scoring finished. 1 vs 2

in 2018 Bottas finished 5th,
Ham - 1 non-points scoring finish
Vettel - 1 non-points scoring finish
Kimi - 4 non-points scoring finish
Max - 4 non-points scoring finish
Bottas - 2 non-points scoring finish

Both years suggest the Mercedes was not as dominant as some people want to make it sound. It also points to the fact the driver played a more significant role than some want to admit to.

One could also argue Bottas' finishing position was due to being relentlessly sacrificed on the Strategy Alter for the benefit of Lewis. It is obvious that Merc have been the dominant chassis/engine since 2014. Period. Full Stop.

It can cut in all directions.

[Just_a_fan]

One could also argue Bottas' finishing position was due to being relentlessly sacrificed on the Strategy Alter for the benefit of Lewis. It is obvious that Merc have been the dominant chassis/engine since 2014. Period. Full Stop.

It can cut in all directions.

One could argue that if there was evidence. That Bottas is allowed to race for wins suggest he isn't "relentlessly sacrificed". That Bottas is often given first stop even when behind suggests he isn't "relentlessly sacrificed". Hamilton beats Bottas because he's better than him.

[grubschumi13]

Here’s another crazy statistic:

Mercedes 2014-2020 have won more races than Ferrari 2000-2004 and Red Bull 2010-2013 combined.

102 vs 98

There is no doubt whatsoever that 2014-2021 is the least competitive period in Formula 1 history. The fact that Rosberg is still the second most winning driver since 2014 shows just what a joke this era has been.

This was my exact argument. Hamilton thrives in non-competitive F1 as long as he is the one with the big advantage.

All his championships he has only had 1 rival. 4 of which were his own teammate, 2 of which his wingman had to endure team orders.

Compare this to Vettel. 2010 beat Webber, Alonso and Hamilton. 6 drivers on the grid capable of winning races. Lewis was mathematically in the hunt even in the last race. Lewis was up against 5 other drivers in cars that could win races and he finished 4th of the 6 drivers.

2011 Lewis finished 5th of the 6 drivers. You can say RBR was faster but Button finished 2nd to Lewis' 5th.

2012 the most competitive season in years Lewis finished 4th in the best car that season:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... 12/429955/

https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/1689 ... --analysis

https://www.racefans.net/2012/12/03/201 ... rformance/

Whitmarsh said it himself with hindsight in 2013 about the 2012 car:



Lewis himself Praises Bottas, kovalainen uncompetitive teammates and fell out with his competitive teammates Alonso and Rosberg.

[Just_a_fan]

2012 the most competitive season in years Lewis finished 4th in the best car that season:

Retired from the lead in three races through no fault of his own. Give him those three wins and he's champion.

[grubschumi13]

Schumacher’s achievements are diminished all the time because of low competition in his era, so I don’t see a reason why Hamilton should be treated any differently.

I don't know who you have been talking with, but the people that I know that don't hold schumi in high regard, do so because of tactics he used throughout his career not the competition he faced. Even as a schumi fan I found some of his tactics distasteful.

you said

I will always use the very low and mediocre competition from 2014-2021 as an argument against Hamilton’s greatness,

That reads like no matter what he does over the rest of his career, I'm going to beat him down with this point. It's not a good look!

In 2017 Bottas finished 3rd behind Vettel, even though vettel had more non-points scoring finished. 1 vs 2

in 2018 Bottas finished 5th,
Ham - 1 non-points scoring finish
Vettel - 1 non-points scoring finish
Kimi - 4 non-points scoring finish
Max - 4 non-points scoring finish
Bottas - 2 non-points scoring finish

Both years suggest the Mercedes was not as dominant as some people want to make it sound. It also points to the fact the driver played a more significant role than some want to admit to.

One could also argue Bottas' finishing position was due to being relentlessly sacrificed on the Strategy Alter for the benefit of Lewis. It is obvious that Merc have been the dominant chassis/engine since 2014. Period. Full Stop.

It can cut in all directions.

I don't think it's fair to compare the Ferrari's fastest to Mercedes slowest to conclude Mercedes was not as dominant. Indeed the fact that the Mercedes's slowest car so so close to the Ferrari's fastest is testimony to how dominant they were.

in 2018 Bottas finished 5th,

We must also remember the obvious 7 points Bottas gave to Lewis via team orders in Russia. With those 7 points Bottas is elevated to 3rd in the championship ahead of Kimi.

[grubschumi13]

2012 the most competitive season in years Lewis finished 4th in the best car that season:

Retired from the lead in three races through no fault of his own. Give him those three wins and he's champion.

Retirements are not unique to Lewis Hamilton. Only his fans are the ones who cite unreliability as if it is such an anomaly in F1. It's part and parcel of F1.

Vettel retired from the lead in the European GP that same season. So no if everyone did not have a single retirement Vettel will still have been champion. But of course only Hamilton's retirements are important.

[PlatinumZealot]

Stroll believes that because Vettel is a 4XWDC he will bring a championship winning mentality to Aston Martin. Papa stroll fails to see or has ignored that this did not work at Ferrari. It is very doubtful. Vettel can turn the team to think like champions.

Even Lewis and Michael could not do that at McLaren and Mercedes respectively.

Lawrence Stroll
“But he’s a four-time World Champion. I don’t think he forgot how to drive in one year. He has a work ethic that is known as second to none in the paddock in terms of how hard he works.

“One of the ways we are going to become World Champions is to get my guys to think and act like World Champions. And how you do that is to bring a four-time World Champion into the team.

“He will take the team in a direction of leading us to where ultimately we want to be.

“I’m not concerned. I know Sebastian well and I have 100% confidence and belief he will do a fantastic job with us. He is more motivated than he has ever been.”

[ringo]

Here’s another crazy statistic:

Mercedes 2014-2020 have won more races than Ferrari 2000-2004 and Red Bull 2010-2013 combined.

102 vs 98

There is no doubt whatsoever that 2014-2021 is the least competitive period in Formula 1 history. The fact that Rosberg is still the second most winning driver since 2014 shows just what a joke this era has been.

I do not understand your reasoning. You say the driver is not so good, but yet you are showing the great results said driver has achieved.
The results are a combination of the car and driver. You will find it difficult to separate the two. For all we know redbull could have been the best car in the hybrid era, but it's always driven by inexperienced young drivers who do not know how to extract the most out of the car.
The wins achieved do not point to the least competitive era. You should first look at the pace of the car and driver combo. Hamilton + Merc or Shu + Ferrari was just the best combination in their times. That's the only conclusion you can draw from wins.

As for your measurement of Max. What will you do if Perez beats him next year?
I would really like to know what theory you would ascribe.

[dans79]

We must also remember the obvious 7 points Bottas gave to Lewis via team orders in Russia. With those 7 points Bottas is elevated to 3rd in the championship ahead of Kimi.

I like how you completely glazed over that both cars immediately above him in the standings has twice as many non points scoring finishes (4 dnfs for kimi, and 3 for max). Take 2 or even 1 of them away, and even if he picks up 7 points i'm pretty sure he finishes behind them (with out rewatching the races to see what position they were in compared to him when they retired).

[dans79]

while I'm at it the same can be said for this season.

Bottas finished 2nd with 223 points, 2 wins, 1 dnf, and 2 non-points scoring finishes.
Max finished 3rd with 214 points, 2 wins, 5 dnf

Take one of the Dnf's away from max, 2 at most and he beats Bottas. Hardly makes the Merc sound as dominate as so many claim it is.

[Kingshark]

I do not understand your reasoning. You say the driver is not so good, but yet you are showing the great results said driver has achieved.

I have never said Hamilton is not a good driver. At worst, I have said that Hamilton’s statistics are enormously inflated because he drove for the most dominant team of all time.

The results are a combination of the car and driver. You will find it difficult to separate the two. For all we know redbull could have been the best car in the hybrid era, but it's always driven by inexperienced young drivers who do not know how to extract the most out of the car.

Actually, I find it fairly easy to separate the two.

Hamilton’s finishing position in the drivers standings:
2009 - 5th
2010 - 4th
2011 - 5th
2012 - 4th
2013 - 4th
2014 - 1st
2015 - 1st
etc...

It’s not very likely that Hamilton magically improved as a driver at the age of 29.

The wins achieved do not point to the least competitive era. You should first look at the pace of the car and driver combo. Hamilton + Merc or Shu + Ferrari was just the best combination in their times. That's the only conclusion you can draw from wins.

Of course they do. The fact that Mercedes have won 75% of all the races since 2014 points to a highly uncompetitive era where only one team can win consistently.

As for your measurement of Max. What will you do if Perez beats him next year?
I would really like to know what theory you would ascribe.

That’s an entirely hypothetical question, but I would obviously change my mind on Verstappen as a driver, just like I would change my mind on Hamilton if he lost to Russell in 2022.

My opinions on drivers are constantly evolving depending on what new data is available.

[LM10]

Stroll believes that because Vettel is a 4XWDC he will bring a championship winning mentality to Aston Martin. Papa stroll fails to see or has ignored that this did not work at Ferrari. It is very doubtful. Vettel can turn the team to think like champions.

Even Lewis and Michael could not do that at McLaren and Mercedes respectively.

Bringing the mentality to a team doesn’t equal bringing the title.
I don’t think Ferrari needed any championship winning mentality as they already have that, obviously. Aston Martin, however, don’t know how it feels like to have title ambitions.

[PlatinumZealot]

I do not understand your reasoning. You say the driver is not so good, but yet you are showing the great results said driver has achieved.

I have never said Hamilton is not a good driver. At worst, I have said that Hamilton’s statistics are enormously inflated because he drove for the most dominant team of all time.

The results are a combination of the car and driver. You will find it difficult to separate the two. For all we know redbull could have been the best car in the hybrid era, but it's always driven by inexperienced young drivers who do not know how to extract the most out of the car.

Actually, I find it fairly easy to separate the two.

Hamilton’s finishing position in the drivers standings:
2009 - 5th
2010 - 4th
2011 - 5th
2012 - 4th
2013 - 4th
2014 - 1st
2015 - 1st
etc...

It’s not very likely that Hamilton magically improved as a driver at the age of 29.

The wins achieved do not point to the least competitive era. You should first look at the pace of the car and driver combo. Hamilton + Merc or Shu + Ferrari was just the best combination in their times. That's the only conclusion you can draw from wins.

Of course they do. The fact that Mercedes have won 75% of all the races since 2014 points to a highly uncompetitive era where only one team can win consistently.

As for your measurement of Max. What will you do if Perez beats him next year?
I would really like to know what theory you would ascribe.

That’s an entirely hypothetical question, but I would obviously change my mind on Verstappen as a driver, just like I would change my mind on Hamilton if he lost to Russell in 2022.

My opinions on drivers are constantly evolving depending on what new data is available.

Check his driver performance in those years on f1-metrics. He is ranked higger than VET most if then when adjusted for car eprformance.