Vettel's 4 vs Hamilton's 6.

[NathanOlder]

I don't think it's fair to compare the Ferrari's fastest to Mercedes slowest to conclude Mercedes was not as dominant. Indeed the fact that the Mercedes's slowest car so so close to the Ferrari's fastest is testimony to how dominant they were.

What it should do is stop the people that constantly say 'anyone can win a championship in the Mercedes' from doing so as this is proof that its rubbish.

[Just_a_fan]

For what it's worth, here's Button's view on Hamilton.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/jenson-button-exclusive/

He rates him rather highly. But what does he know?

[dans79]

For what it's worth, here's Button's view on Hamilton.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/jenson-button-exclusive/

He rates him rather highly. But what does he know?

Alonso's take.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/fernando- ... -the-best/

“Okay, he has a dominant car, but he’s better than his teammate,” he told Marca.

“You always have to show up, he can’t afford a bad weekend, he’s at the peak of his performance. Hopefully, we can fight Lewis soon, not next year, but soon.

“I think a lot of people can win a Grand Prix with that car and they can win championships in that car. That doesn’t mean anything bad about Lewis like I said, he’s one step ahead.

“How important is the car? What is it like to be in the right place at the right time? It is very important. This is Formula 1 and it has always been like that, but when you are in that place and at that moment, you have to perform and Lewis does it better than anyone.

[raymondu999]

Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo have all been locked out of any seriously competitive machinery for the entire hybrid era. Meanwhile you have a mediocre driver like Bottas spending 5 years in title winning machinery.

You don't put two roosters in the hen house as the saying goes.

• Verstappen had his chance at a Merc seat, but he was in to much of a rush to get to F1.
• Alonso not being in a Merc, is his because of his continued bad choises.
• Ricciardo should have never left redbull, as that has only hurt his profile.

Surely this is the excellent antithesis of the best drivers end up in the best cars equation?

As shown above there are — in many cases — extenuating circumstances. Career choices, etc. play a huge part. The best drivers do NOT always end up in the best cars

[dans79]

Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo have all been locked out of any seriously competitive machinery for the entire hybrid era. Meanwhile you have a mediocre driver like Bottas spending 5 years in title winning machinery.

You don't put two roosters in the hen house as the saying goes.

• Verstappen had his chance at a Merc seat, but he was in to much of a rush to get to F1.
• Alonso not being in a Merc, is his because of his continued bad choises.
• Ricciardo should have never left redbull, as that has only hurt his profile.

Surely this is the excellent antithesis of the best drivers end up in the best cars equation?

As shown above there are — in many cases — extenuating circumstances. Career choices, etc. play a huge part. The best drivers do NOT always end up in the best cars

The best cars is a more generalized term, think top 2 or 3 teams!

[Kingshark]

You don't put two roosters in the hen house as the saying goes.

• Verstappen had his chance at a Merc seat, but he was in to much of a rush to get to F1.
• Alonso not being in a Merc, is his because of his continued bad choises.
• Ricciardo should have never left redbull, as that has only hurt his profile.

Surely this is the excellent antithesis of the best drivers end up in the best cars equation?

As shown above there are — in many cases — extenuating circumstances. Career choices, etc. play a huge part. The best drivers do NOT always end up in the best cars

The best cars is a more generalized term, think top 2 or 3 teams!

In that case, what makes this era unique is just how dominant the best team has been and how much that limits the success of the driver in the second or third best car.

Mercedes have won 7 consecutive WDC and WCC titles and won 75% of the races. That is dominance on a scale unheard of in the history of the sport.

It’s very different from say, period from 2006-2010 when arguably five different teams had the best car over five separate seasons. In those days, the best car advantage was constantly changing.

With 2021 not expected to be any different, we are soon entering year 8 Mercedes dominance. This means yet another easy unopposed title for Hamilton while supremely talented drivers like Verstappen and Leclerc are limited to only a few podiums or wins per year.

At what point does the sport become meaningless?

[dans79]

At what point does the sport become meaningless?

It is and has always been meaningless to the fans that don't care about anything other than how many races and championships their favorite driver or team wins.

F1 has always placed more importance on the technical side of the sport, but as of late liberty and the FIA have been trying to dumb it down to pull in more ficial fans! It's a sad thing when someone calls themselves a fan and can't even remember what 7 tire compound names mean!

[NathanOlder]

At what point does the sport become meaningless?

It is and has always been meaningless to the fans that don't care about anything other than how many races and championships their favorite driver or team wins.

F1 has always placed more importance on the technical side of the sport, but as of late liberty and the FIA have been trying to dumb it down to pull in more ficial fans! It's a sad thing when someone calls themselves a fan and can't even remember what 7 tire compound names mean!

Speaking of the 7 tyre compounds, I was always disappointed they never brought out a Super-Medium We had Super Soft and Super Hard. Super Medum would have been the icing on the cake!

[Kingshark]

At what point does the sport become meaningless?

It is and has always been meaningless to the fans that don't care about anything other than how many races and championships their favorite driver or team wins.

I like to see driver achievements be an accurate reflection of driver ability. Hamilton and Vettel have both had their achievements severely inflated relative to their actual talent because of car advantage. Hamilton more so than Vettel because Mercedes is more dominant than Red Bull ever was.

On the other hand you have someone like Ricciardo who is 31 and still has never driven a single WDC capable car in his entire career, injustice tbh.

I do think that over time, F1 will eventually become like Indycar, where the cars are almost equal and the drivers are the primary difference makers. This is because it's human nature to want a proper competition.

[NathanOlder]

At what point does the sport become meaningless?

It is and has always been meaningless to the fans that don't care about anything other than how many races and championships their favorite driver or team wins.

I like to see driver achievements be an accurate reflection of driver ability. Hamilton and Vettel have both had their achievements severely inflated relative to their actual talent because of car advantage. Hamilton more so than Vettel because Mercedes is more dominant than Red Bull ever was.

On the other hand you have someone like Ricciardo who is 31 and still has never driven a single WDC capable car in his entire career, injustice tbh.

I do think that over time, F1 will eventually become like Indycar, where the cars are almost equal and the drivers are the primary difference makers. This is because it's human nature to want a proper competition.

The same teams seem to win mostly in IndyCar, so its not exactly a level playing field.

And as for RIcciardo not being in a WDC contending car, unfortunately there is probably half a dozen drivers near the top level, but over the last 7 years only Ferrari have made a car equal to Merc. So drivers have to miss out. Thats how F1 has always been. Nothing new .

[aMessageToCharlie]

At what point does the sport become meaningless?

It is and has always been meaningless to the fans that don't care about anything other than how many races and championships their favorite driver or team wins.

Agree 100%. I have rooted for Lewis and Mclaren all the way from 2011 when RBR was dominant and though to 2015. And for Mercedes to get to the top while they were struggeling. I don't understand what people get from watching one driver cruise to uncontested wins for years and years and even feel the need to inflate this accomplishment by talking down the car's dominance. I want to see racing and the drivers pushing to the max.

[El Scorchio]

If the top bods at Mercedes or Ferrari or RBR decided Ricciardo (for example) was a better bet than what they've got, then they'd have jettisoned their incumbent driver for him. Just like what happened at Ferrari to Vettel. They aren't stupid, subjective or sentimental and going to keep a driver on out of loyalty over performance. There's a reason Hamilton has kept that drive for seven years. There's a reason RBR put all their eggs in the Verstappen basket. There's a reason Leclerc has been anointed at Ferrari.

The teams feel those particular drivers give them the best chance of success, and unfortunately for Ricciardo and a few others, they see him as slightly below that level.

Put another way- EVERYONE including Verstappen wants Hamilton's seat and would move heaven and earth to get it. But Hamilton keeps it year in year out. In addition, if Hamilton suddenly became available and wanted a seat, he'd get his pick provided the team could afford him.

[aMessageToCharlie]

If the top bods at Mercedes or Ferrari or RBR decided Ricciardo (for example) was a better bet than what they've got, then they'd have jettisoned their incumbent driver for him. Just like what happened at Ferrari to Vettel. They aren't stupid, subjective or sentimental and going to keep a driver on out of loyalty over performance. There's a reason Hamilton has kept that drive for seven years. There's a reason RBR put all their eggs in the Verstappen basket. There's a reason Leclerc has been anointed at Ferrari.

The teams feel those particular drivers give them the best chance of success, and unfortunately for Ricciardo and a few others, they see him as slightly below that level.

Put another way- EVERYONE including Verstappen wants Hamilton's seat and would move heaven and earth to get it. But Hamilton keeps it year in year out. In addition, if Hamilton suddenly became available and wanted a seat, he'd get his pick provided the team could afford him.

I agree to a point, but there is one deciding difference: From a team's perspective, the best choice isnt necessarily to have the two fastest available drivers in their car.

If that was the case, then Bottas wouldn’t be driving for Mercedes. Sainz wouldn’t be driving for Ferrari. Stroll wouldn’t be driving for Aston Martin, etc.

Teams want the fastest guy possible in their number one seat to secure the WDC and a capeable, but slightly slower driver in the second car, who doesnt clash with the number one. This way they can collect maximum points without having any intra team drama.

Teams dont want a VET/LEC, HAM/ALO, HAM/ROS, VET/WEB, VES/RIC situation. They want harmony and maximum points.

Drivers like RIC dont have a chance, because they are too fast to be a number 2 and unproven to be better than the current number 1s. There are effectively only 3 seats available (1 per top team). And these are occupied long term.

[El Scorchio]

If the top bods at Mercedes or Ferrari or RBR decided Ricciardo (for example) was a better bet than what they've got, then they'd have jettisoned their incumbent driver for him. Just like what happened at Ferrari to Vettel. They aren't stupid, subjective or sentimental and going to keep a driver on out of loyalty over performance. There's a reason Hamilton has kept that drive for seven years. There's a reason RBR put all their eggs in the Verstappen basket. There's a reason Leclerc has been anointed at Ferrari.

The teams feel those particular drivers give them the best chance of success, and unfortunately for Ricciardo and a few others, they see him as slightly below that level.

Put another way- EVERYONE including Verstappen wants Hamilton's seat and would move heaven and earth to get it. But Hamilton keeps it year in year out. In addition, if Hamilton suddenly became available and wanted a seat, he'd get his pick provided the team could afford him.

I agree to a point, but there is one deciding difference: From a team's perspective, the best choice isnt necessarily to have the two fastest available drivers in their car.

If that was the case, then Bottas wouldn’t be driving for Mercedes. Sainz wouldn’t be driving for Ferrari. Stroll wouldn’t be driving for Aston Martin, etc.

Teams want the fastest guy possible in their number one seat to secure the WDC and a capeable, but slightly slower driver in the second car, who doesnt clash with the number one. This way they can collect maximum points without having any intra team drama.

Teams dont want a VET/LEC, HAM/ALO, HAM/ROS, VET/WEB, VES/RIC situation. They want harmony and maximum points.

Drivers like RIC dont have a chance, because they are too fast to be a number 2 and unproven to be better than the current number 1s. There are effectively only 3 seats available (1 per top team). And these are occupied long term.

Absolutely. Agree with you on the teams preferring harmony than two alpha dogs as we know that's usually a recipe for disaster. So the scope for a winning seat is even smaller, and Ricciardo (probably the consensus 4th best driver on the grid) unfortunately is shut out because there are only three 'premium' seats (lead driver at a top team) available and he's 'too good/ambitious' for the second seat. He was a casualty of this at Red Bull where he was placed in deference to Verstappen and knew he'd never get equal treatment, so felt he had to leave. It's a reduced numbers game but still a numbers game and he has been unlucky during his career but sadly those are the breaks. If Wolff, Horner or Binotto thought Ricciardo could do a better job than their current lead driver though, then he'd get that drive. It's cruel but it's just the way it goes.

And I would say Ricciardo always has a chance. The team have access to a lot of data which will show what he can do in the car, while knowing it's limits relative to their own. He's just got to do it comparatively better than the driver they have.

[Kingshark]

It is and has always been meaningless to the fans that don't care about anything other than how many races and championships their favorite driver or team wins.

I like to see driver achievements be an accurate reflection of driver ability. Hamilton and Vettel have both had their achievements severely inflated relative to their actual talent because of car advantage. Hamilton more so than Vettel because Mercedes is more dominant than Red Bull ever was.

On the other hand you have someone like Ricciardo who is 31 and still has never driven a single WDC capable car in his entire career, injustice tbh.

I do think that over time, F1 will eventually become like Indycar, where the cars are almost equal and the drivers are the primary difference makers. This is because it's human nature to want a proper competition.

The same teams seem to win mostly in IndyCar, so its not exactly a level playing field.

And as for RIcciardo not being in a WDC contending car, unfortunately there is probably half a dozen drivers near the top level, but over the last 7 years only Ferrari have made a car equal to Merc. So drivers have to miss out. Thats how F1 has always been. Nothing new .

No it has not always been like this. One team being this dominant for this long a period is something that has never been seen before in the history of this sport.