What is your opinion about Mclaren MP4/20?

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
VaTRiX
VaTRiX
0
Joined: 06 Jan 2005, 18:29

What is your opinion about Mclaren MP4/20?

Post

Hy all!!

I'd like you to write about the new Mclaren MP4/20! I am really interested in this car, so I'd like to know everything, about this. So write you all of the information, you know!

THX!


by VaTRiX

Guest
Guest
0

Post

Twin-keel

User avatar
Spencifer_Murphy
0
Joined: 11 Apr 2004, 23:29
Location: London, England, UK

Post

The car looks good for a start. The car seems to follow more organic lines like on the Renault this year...the MP4-18, 19 and 19B all had sharp angluar lines...much like the F117 Stealth Fighter/Bomber lol. This year the car still looks like an evolution of the 19B...but smoother. The nose is wider...they raced a nose similar to this at Monza in '04. The car is still a twin-keel and judging by the 19B's performance in the latter part of the season I think Mclaren has cracked how to get it to work...so I don't imagine that would be an issue. They have started using chimney's to cool the engine again...they used them back in 2000 I think...not too sure...altho they definately did sometime between 1999-2001. Anyway, my pint is I think they have found that not only does it work at cooling, and removing hot air from the engine bay...but also they can be shaped to control the flow of air towards the rear of the car. On that piont its can also be noted that unlike all other teams so far, thier 2005 car does NOT use an airbox wing on the engine cover...nor does it use a midwing over the rear axle (I don't think so anyway...correct me if I'm wrong).

All in all the car looks quite solid...and surely Mclaren have learnt from the mistakes of the MP4-18 and MP4-19 by now...haven't they?
Silence is golden when you don't know a good answer.

bernard
bernard
0
Joined: 06 Jun 2004, 21:10
Location: France/Finland

Post

Spencifer_Murphy wrote: The car is still a twin-keel and judging by the 19B's performance in the latter part of the season I think Mclaren has cracked how to get it to work..

nor does it use a midwing over the rear axle (I don't think so anyway...correct me if I'm wrong).
The car is not exactly a twinkeel, take a look here, http://www.formula-one.net/pics05/velke/27-01-22b.jpg though I'm getting tired of stating the same thing over and over again, as people tend to think of the suspension as a minor factor and consider the overall aesthetics a much better indicator of the car's changes.

So, the suspension isn't mounted exactly on the keels, they serve more as an aerodynamic device, turning vanes if you wish.
Now the lower front wishbones are mounted directly to the tub. I asked about this a year ago, I was shot down back then. Here's the thread viewtopic.php?t=863 "It's impossible" was the answer from Reca back then. Well, Reca, how you like them apples? :wink:

The upper wishbones are crooked and bent downwards similar to the lower one's, removing the problem of drastic camber changes during bump and rebound caused by a straight upper wishbone and tilted lower wishbone.
Maybe next year Mclaren will take this concept one step further, to it's final destination, and get rid of keels altogether, partially the moving force behind twinkeel.

As it is now, the suspension/keel setup is much stiffer with smaller weight gain. This weight can be put as ballast to other areas, effectively improving the CofG of the car. After all, the car had been said to lost massive amounts of weight. Pair the new suspension with the fact that Mclaren has refused to reveal what their gearbox casing is made of, amping up thr rumours that they have finally managed to get their carbon gearbox to work, you have the reason for the massive weight loss.

User avatar
Steven
Owner
Joined: 19 Aug 2002, 18:32
Location: Belgium

Post

well Bernard I don't agree with you on this. It's possibly only perception, but let's have a look at it.

What we considered a single keel all these years of the high nose is that the lower wishbones are connected to a small keel in the centre under the nose to take profit from the longest possible lower wishbones in the suspension config. Now however, I agree that these are connected to the tub, but do you think that's a single keel then? The distance between the left and right connection point is about the with of the monocoque at that place, just like it was at the twin keeled Arrows (don't know the version number anymore).

Anyway I think this suspension will behave much like a twin keel suspension. Maybe at this time we just need a new term, like monokeel or something :D

Have you also noticed the long pushrods? Any idea what this may be for an advantage?

@Spenifer: looking at Bernard's picture, there seems to be a central wing over the rear axle ;) Well if you can call that piece of carbon a wing of course :D

dumrick
dumrick
0
Joined: 19 Jan 2004, 13:36
Location: Portugal

Post

Tomba wrote:I agree that these are connected to the tub, but do you think that's a single keel then?
Why do you think it is still a "keel"?????
Tomba wrote:Maybe at this time we just need a new term, like monokeel or something :D
Yeah, a new term for an old thing. Can you remember that F1 cars always had the wishbones connected to the tub, before the high nose trend??????? :evil: :evil:

It's not the first time I feel that people are just picking on Bernard...

Reca
Reca
93
Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

Post

bernard wrote: So, the suspension isn't mounted exactly on the keels, they serve more as an aerodynamic device, turning vanes if you wish.
Now the lower front wishbones are mounted directly to the tub. I asked about this a year ago, I was shot down back then. Here's the thread viewtopic.php?t=863 "It's impossible" was the answer from Reca back then. Well, Reca, how you like them apples?
Bienvenu Bernard, ça va bien ?
Sorry for the delay, I’ve seen your post just this morning.
Well, what can I say ? You proved that I can be wrong... congratulations.
Actually, I don want to diminish your discover but, you know, somehow I already knew that, it wasn’t the first time, and surely isn’t going to be the last.
I thought that to incline too much the lower wishbone, as required to attach it directly to the tub, would have compromised the suspension geometry too much, they made their homework, raised a bit the attachment point on the upright, inclined both wishbone and were able to reduce a lot the length of the keel, now very short. Apparently my “too much” wasn’t “too much” for them. Fair enough, they have data and work with Michelin, I don’t, they must be right.
Just one thing though. About the “I was shot down back then” and the “It’s impossible”. A French guy once said to me that I have to be careful when quoting someone so I want to apply his suggestion to what happened 6 months ago (based on Earth time, probably 1 year based on France time).
When I explained to you, and it wasn’t the first time, why a keel is needed and that the problem isn’t the nosecone but the chassis that is too high relative to the wishbone, you said :
bernard wrote: Yes I know that, but what I'm after here is isn't it possible to mount the lower wishbones to the nosecone ?

And my answer :
Reca wrote:
No


dumrick wrote:
Yeah, a new term for an old thing. Can you remember that F1 cars always had the wishbones connected to the tub, before the high nose trend???????

Also in the good modern days of high nose the wishbone is, strictly talking, connected to the tub, the keel is just a prolongation of the tub, if it’s 5 cm or 30 cm isn’t important. In the Sauber C19 it was possibly even shorter than in the Mp4/20.
Then on the McLaren, since the Mp4/17, to the keel (structural and part of the chassis) is attached a turning vane (non structural and a separate part). It’s the same on the Mp4/20, simply the structural part is now very short.

dumrick wrote:
It's not the first time I feel that people are just picking on Bernard...

If you read his posts (and not only here) you can see that more often than not he has the habit to insult people disagreeing with him or disrespect other people’s work (for example he called Martin Whitmarsh an “overcautious woman”, just because McLaren last year didn’t use the wide nose in races, recently he also insulted Scarbs’ work on Atlas). That’s not the behaviour that makes other people to be kind with you.

bernard
bernard
0
Joined: 06 Jun 2004, 21:10
Location: France/Finland

Post

Reca, good reply. I'm glad you can admit you were wrong. Takes a man to be able do that. :wink:
But seriously about the latter part of your post... with nosecone I obviously meant the tub back then and I think you understood that. Obviously english is not my native language. :oops:

About the Scarbs article on the Mp4-20... if you read it, you know it wasn't that good. Scarbs admitted he had only seen the car on pictures, which partially explains the lack of insight.
I had been eagerly waiting for the article. So I was disappointed.
I have nothing against Scarbs, but you should remember I pay to read his articles. Therefore I believe I have the right to expect something for my money. And being mainly a Mclaren fan the mp4-20 review was the one I was most looking forward to.

And about some people having a grudge against me... who cares? I know I don't. :)

Reca
Reca
93
Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

Post

bernard wrote: Reca, good reply. I'm glad you can admit you were wrong. Takes a man to be able do that.
You know, there’s only One who’s never wrong, each human being on this planet is quite often wrong. Especially in engineering where you have to make choices, not always it’s black or white (almost never actually), so you have to look at the balance between the advantages and disadvantages of different solutions. I think that there are lot of engineers in F1 who wouldn’t adopt the same solution as McLaren, and at the same time lot of engineers who would, and in both groups, most are ready to change opinion as a consequence of the McLaren results (although I’ve the suspect that the Renault V-keel could be more appreciated by the first group). Last year I read an article by Sergio Rinland on an Italian magazine, just few weeks before the start of the season, he analysed all the cars from a technical point of view and declared that Mp4/19 and FW26 would have easily beaten the F2004 because the latter had a too traditional front end (Rinland is obviously biased on the twin keel...). Well you know what happened then... so if Sergio Rinland, who has infinitively more experience than me, can be a “tiny bit” wrong, I think I can live with my misjudgements.
bernard wrote: But seriously about the latter part of your post... with nosecone I obviously meant the tub back then and I think you understood that.
Seriously, I wouldn’t be as sure as you are about the fact that I understood it, I understand it now, but at the time, considering your remark, on another thread, that McLaren particularly and also other cars have a relatively low nose, not really. My mistake, sorry, let’s close that discussion, isn’t worth more words than we already spent on it.

At the end about the Scarbs article, I didn’t read it because I’m not a subscriber but the point I was trying to make is, and please take it as a friendly advice, that IMO you get “mad” a bit too easily about these things. Every professional (photographs included ;-)) tries to do the best with the resources he has at the moment, I’m sure that when Scarbs will have the chance to take a good look to the car (something we all envy him for), and to talk with people at McLaren, he’ll write a wonderful and very detailed article, you just have to be patient, to “let your fury explode” (obviously that’s an exaggeration) on a public forum just because of that single article isn’t nice.
I give you an example, since I referred previously to the V-keel, yesterday I’ve bought Autosprint, an Italian weekly printed probably on Monday to be sold on Tuesday, Piola does for it the same work Scarbs does for Atlas, technical articles. In the R25 analysis he says that the car has a particular solution for the attachment of the lower wishbone but it wasn’t possible to be more precise, he had to wait for the launch. I didn’t notice that particular from R25 pics last week, my impression was that the car was simply a single keel, so I didn’t pay big attention to the area. But when I read the article, yesterday at noon, I looked at the pics I downloaded from last week test and playing a bit with brightness on a couple of them, particularly the first one I linked to in the R25’s thread, the solution was pretty evident. Is Piola an idiot because he didn’t make the same little effort to see it ? Well, to be honest once you know, and he clearly knew it, that there’s something particular there, it wasn’t needed a genius to find it... but isn’t necessary to be mad with him for that, maybe he even did it but then he simply preferred to wait, look at the car, and be sure about it. And in fact, yesterday night, on a tv program with a report of the launch, he described the solution and I’m sure he will write a very good article about it next Tuesday, possibly with a little story of all the different solution adopted in the years to solve that problem. Yes, I spent 2.5€ to buy the magazine and surely I would have appreciated a bit more of precision yesterday, but on the same magazine there was also lot more than just that Piola’s article, and I’m sure in Atlas there’s lot more than just that Scarbs’, for once non excellent, article.

Well, I had a bit of time on hands and I did write more than planned, anyway... I hope that you will continue to post here, just, my friendly suggestion and I think everyone will appreciate it, is : try to be a bit less aggressive and understand that people can disagree with you; you, me, everyone can make mistakes, and that’s not a crime.
I’ll try to do the same.

v10motorhead
v10motorhead
0
Joined: 11 Aug 2003, 17:26
Location: Australia

Post

Looks wise - A Ferrari-Basher

Lets hope Mercedes can deliver a decent engine & put an end to Ferrari's dominance!

bernard
bernard
0
Joined: 06 Jun 2004, 21:10
Location: France/Finland

Post

Reca wrote: and I’m sure in Atlas there’s lot more than just that Scarbs’, for once non excellent, article.
Well, to tell you the truth, I thought so too when I subscribed, but actually there isn't. [-( People were praising it on the BB, but comparing to a weekly magazine with well over a hundred pages, there are 2-3 articles in the atlasf1 magazine that comes out every wednesday.
Unfortunately Scarbs is the only reason I subscribe to the magazine so I got really frustrated when it was below the usual level. Fortunately last weeks Williams review was good quality again.
I have been thinking about changing back to an "actual" magazine again.:D

Guest
Guest
0

Post

new midwing :shock:
Image

Guest
Guest
0

Post

Image

Ifan
Ifan
0

What is your opinion about Mclaren MP4/20?

Post

What's that? Anybody can explain what is the purpose of this mid-wing?
What are the impact to the rear-end? Is it to produce another down force at the center of the car?

Anyway, I always love McLaren car design.

bernard
bernard
0
Joined: 06 Jun 2004, 21:10
Location: France/Finland

Post

The engine cover has a new design too, there is now a cut in it, it might be connected to the rearwing, I'm not sure because there are no good pictures.
As for the Y-shaped airbox wing... sheesh! Never seen anything like it before.