Ferrari SF21

[amr]

Rear hot air exits big again.

They did slim down the rear hot outlet

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 9-19-7.jpg

In recent years Ferrari used to run conservative aero on fridays and switch over to "race spec" from FP3

For quali and race they opened them up again.

Do you think they might have tested in FP3 the outlet for Monaco? Maybe they could run the PU "less hot" due to the low power demand of Monaco and had a quick look to help them prepare better for the next race?

[gordonthegun]

They did slim down the rear hot outlet

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 9-19-7.jpg

In recent years Ferrari used to run conservative aero on fridays and switch over to "race spec" from FP3

For quali and race they opened them up again.

Do you think they might have tested in FP3 the outlet for Monaco? Maybe they could run the PU "less hot" due to the low power demand of Monaco and had a quick look to help them prepare better for the next race?

In my opinion Ferrari is always very conservative on engine cooling. They always choose the wider rear exits.
I think they could be more aggressive on aero using smaller rear outlets.
Maybe they were thinking to run the smaller rear exits (looking at the weather forecast for the race, too) but then they changed their mind not to risk anything.

I don't think they were testing Monaco setup.
Monaco is not very demanding on engine power but cooling is more difficult because of the low speeds, low air turnover on a close track and the fact that you may find yourself following another car for a long time.
Furthermore, aero is not so important in Montecarlo.

In my opinion, unless the weather is very cool they will run the wider setup.

[astralx]

For quali and race they opened them up again.

Do you think they might have tested in FP3 the outlet for Monaco? Maybe they could run the PU "less hot" due to the low power demand of Monaco and had a quick look to help them prepare better for the next race?

In my opinion Ferrari is always very conservative on engine cooling. They always choose the wider rear exits.
I think they could be more aggressive on aero using smaller rear outlets.
Maybe they were thinking to run the smaller rear exits (looking at the weather forecast for the race, too) but then they changed their mind not to risk anything.

I don't think they were testing Monaco setup.
Monaco is not very demanding on engine power but cooling is more difficult because of the low speeds, low air turnover on a close track and the fact that you may find yourself following another car for a long time.
Furthermore, aero is not so important in Montecarlo.

In my opinion, unless the weather is very cool they will run the wider setup.

more effiecient PU= less heat and also the abillity to run the engine more hot is important factor, I think Ferrari is in those 2 areas behind Mercedes and Honda = larger cooling openings...sorry for my bad English

[gordonthegun]

Do you think they might have tested in FP3 the outlet for Monaco? Maybe they could run the PU "less hot" due to the low power demand of Monaco and had a quick look to help them prepare better for the next race?

In my opinion Ferrari is always very conservative on engine cooling. They always choose the wider rear exits.
I think they could be more aggressive on aero using smaller rear outlets.
Maybe they were thinking to run the smaller rear exits (looking at the weather forecast for the race, too) but then they changed their mind not to risk anything.

I don't think they were testing Monaco setup.
Monaco is not very demanding on engine power but cooling is more difficult because of the low speeds, low air turnover on a close track and the fact that you may find yourself following another car for a long time.
Furthermore, aero is not so important in Montecarlo.

In my opinion, unless the weather is very cool they will run the wider setup.

more effiecient PU= less heat and also the abillity to run the engine more hot is important factor, I think Ferrari is in those 2 areas behind Mercedes and Honda = larger cooling openings...sorry for my bad English

The gap to Mercedes and Red Bull becomes much greater considering aero and suspensions, in my opinion.
The engine is the less critical of all the areas and I think Ferrari has a kind of obsession for overheating, not only about the engine.
Even in the very short time of a pit stop, for example, Mercedes brakes smoke, Ferrari's never.
Ferrari might be overcooled in many areas for reliability fears, becoming in this way slower.

[ryaan2904]

Do you think they might have tested in FP3 the outlet for Monaco? Maybe they could run the PU "less hot" due to the low power demand of Monaco and had a quick look to help them prepare better for the next race?

In my opinion Ferrari is always very conservative on engine cooling. They always choose the wider rear exits.
I think they could be more aggressive on aero using smaller rear outlets.
Maybe they were thinking to run the smaller rear exits (looking at the weather forecast for the race, too) but then they changed their mind not to risk anything.

I don't think they were testing Monaco setup.
Monaco is not very demanding on engine power but cooling is more difficult because of the low speeds, low air turnover on a close track and the fact that you may find yourself following another car for a long time.
Furthermore, aero is not so important in Montecarlo.

In my opinion, unless the weather is very cool they will run the wider setup.

more effiecient PU= less heat and also the abillity to run the engine more hot is important factor, I think Ferrari is in those 2 areas behind Mercedes and Honda = larger cooling openings...sorry for my bad English

running your engines leaner (more efficient combustion) actually produces a lot more heat than say a rich fuel mix

[wowgr8]

The gap to Mercedes and Red Bull becomes much greater considering aero and suspensions, in my opinion.
The engine is the less critical of all the areas and I think Ferrari has a kind of obsession for overheating, not only about the engine.
Even in the very short time of a pit stop, for example, Mercedes brakes smoke, Ferrari's never.
Ferrari might be overcooled in many areas for reliability fears, becoming in this way slower.

It's good that Ferrari are always thinking of protecting reliability I like that safety first approach, but when you compare it to Mercedes where everything is so on the limit its incredible. When you compare the hot air exits the Mercs always run theirs incredibly tiny and they never have reliability issues it's amazing. And how tight their engine cover is. The Merc cars from the W10 to the W12 are just works of art. Shows the difference between them and a team like Ferrari who spend as much as Merc but are nowhere near as good

[LM10]

The gap to Mercedes and Red Bull becomes much greater considering aero and suspensions, in my opinion.
The engine is the less critical of all the areas and I think Ferrari has a kind of obsession for overheating, not only about the engine.
Even in the very short time of a pit stop, for example, Mercedes brakes smoke, Ferrari's never.
Ferrari might be overcooled in many areas for reliability fears, becoming in this way slower.

It's good that Ferrari are always thinking of protecting reliability I like that safety first approach, but when you compare it to Mercedes where everything is so on the limit its incredible. When you compare the hot air exits the Mercs always run theirs incredibly tiny and they never have reliability issues it's amazing. And how tight their engine cover is. The Merc cars from the W10 to the W12 are just works of art. Shows the difference between them and a team like Ferrari who spend as much as Merc but are nowhere near as good

I don't understand how people can look at the rear air outlets completely isolated from the whole car concept. Every car has a different engine cover. Look at how early the cover starts to drop down on the Ferrari, right after the roll hoop. No other car has it that extreme. For that reason their shark fin is the biggest on the field. Last year it was even bigger, a monster of a shark fin, but this year they changed the design on that part of the cover a bit because they came up with a downwash style sidepod area like Mercedes and Redbull have already had.
What's more, last year they significantly slimmed down the middle part of the engine cover, sort of RedBull style. That was even though they had that extreme drop down after the roll hoop. And it's still like that on the SF21.

As for Mercedes running everything to it's extreme and not having any reliability issues. You might have missed the constant news of them having engine heat issues in the last couple of seasons. They seem to choose to run the engines turned down instead of adjusting the engine cover.

Maybe you'll think differently when you look at the best Ferrari of recent years, the SF70H. A masterpiece of a car with a big air outlet at the back.

So to sum it up, I highly doubt that you can tell that a team is "nowhere near as good" by simply looking at the rear air outlet.

[astralx]

In my opinion Ferrari is always very conservative on engine cooling. They always choose the wider rear exits.
I think they could be more aggressive on aero using smaller rear outlets.
Maybe they were thinking to run the smaller rear exits (looking at the weather forecast for the race, too) but then they changed their mind not to risk anything.

I don't think they were testing Monaco setup.
Monaco is not very demanding on engine power but cooling is more difficult because of the low speeds, low air turnover on a close track and the fact that you may find yourself following another car for a long time.
Furthermore, aero is not so important in Montecarlo.

In my opinion, unless the weather is very cool they will run the wider setup.

more effiecient PU= less heat and also the abillity to run the engine more hot is important factor, I think Ferrari is in those 2 areas behind Mercedes and Honda = larger cooling openings...sorry for my bad English

running your engines leaner (more efficient combustion) actually produces a lot more heat than say a rich fuel mix

Yes, true. But what is overall efficiency of engine? When is for ex. 50%, that means 50% of the energy in the fuel is transferred in to the movement, work/HP/ and other 50% is heat, or?

[hape]

The gap to Mercedes and Red Bull becomes much greater considering aero and suspensions, in my opinion.
The engine is the less critical of all the areas and I think Ferrari has a kind of obsession for overheating, not only about the engine.
Even in the very short time of a pit stop, for example, Mercedes brakes smoke, Ferrari's never.
Ferrari might be overcooled in many areas for reliability fears, becoming in this way slower.

It's good that Ferrari are always thinking of protecting reliability I like that safety first approach, but when you compare it to Mercedes where everything is so on the limit its incredible. When you compare the hot air exits the Mercs always run theirs incredibly tiny and they never have reliability issues it's amazing. And how tight their engine cover is. The Merc cars from the W10 to the W12 are just works of art. Shows the difference between them and a team like Ferrari who spend as much as Merc but are nowhere near as good

I don't understand how people can look at the rear air outlets completely isolated from the whole car concept. Every car has a different engine cover. Look at how early the cover starts to drop down on the Ferrari, right after the roll hoop. No other car has it that extreme. For that reason their shark fin is the biggest on the field. Last year it was even bigger, a monster of a shark fin, but this year they changed the design on that part of the cover a bit because they came up with a downwash style sidepod area like Mercedes and Redbull have already had.
What's more, last year they significantly slimmed down the middle part of the engine cover, sort of RedBull style. That was even though they had that extreme drop down after the roll hoop. And it's still like that on the SF21.

As for Mercedes running everything to it's extreme and not having any reliability issues. You might have missed the constant news of them having engine heat issues in the last couple of seasons. They seem to choose to run the engines turned down instead of adjusting the engine cover.

Maybe you'll think differently when you look at the best Ferrari of recent years, the SF70H. A masterpiece of a car with a big air outlet at the back.

So to sum it up, I highly doubt that you can tell that a team is "nowhere near as good" by simply looking at the rear air outlet.

Agreed.
These engines have to bleed around 50% of the energy fed to them as heat energy, some maybe a little more and some maybe a little less. To conclude from the rear outlets which engine is better or running hotter, which teams are running more critical than others is just guessing.
But we do know from their radio messages, Mercedes is critical on cooling in recent years in the hot races.

[gordonthegun]

The gap to Mercedes and Red Bull becomes much greater considering aero and suspensions, in my opinion.
The engine is the less critical of all the areas and I think Ferrari has a kind of obsession for overheating, not only about the engine.
Even in the very short time of a pit stop, for example, Mercedes brakes smoke, Ferrari's never.
Ferrari might be overcooled in many areas for reliability fears, becoming in this way slower.

It's good that Ferrari are always thinking of protecting reliability I like that safety first approach, but when you compare it to Mercedes where everything is so on the limit its incredible. When you compare the hot air exits the Mercs always run theirs incredibly tiny and they never have reliability issues it's amazing. And how tight their engine cover is. The Merc cars from the W10 to the W12 are just works of art. Shows the difference between them and a team like Ferrari who spend as much as Merc but are nowhere near as good

I don't understand how people can look at the rear air outlets completely isolated from the whole car concept. Every car has a different engine cover. Look at how early the cover starts to drop down on the Ferrari, right after the roll hoop. No other car has it that extreme. For that reason their shark fin is the biggest on the field. Last year it was even bigger, a monster of a shark fin, but this year they changed the design on that part of the cover a bit because they came up with a downwash style sidepod area like Mercedes and Redbull have already had.
What's more, last year they significantly slimmed down the middle part of the engine cover, sort of RedBull style. That was even though they had that extreme drop down after the roll hoop. And it's still like that on the SF21.

As for Mercedes running everything to it's extreme and not having any reliability issues. You might have missed the constant news of them having engine heat issues in the last couple of seasons. They seem to choose to run the engines turned down instead of adjusting the engine cover.

Maybe you'll think differently when you look at the best Ferrari of recent years, the SF70H. A masterpiece of a car with a big air outlet at the back.

So to sum it up, I highly doubt that you can tell that a team is "nowhere near as good" by simply looking at the rear air outlet.

Right!
In fact Ferrari is dramatically behind the top teams not only looking at the rear air outlets.
It's behind in front suspension, in front aero.
It's the only team that didn't raise the front suspension arms (together with Haas) to let more air pass under them to go to the floor and diffuser.
It's one of the 3 teams with an impressively large nose (together with Haas and Williams).
It's behind as a team in general, in strategist, in mechanics and tools too (considering the usual time needed for a pit stop, always longer than the 2 top teams).

To conclude: considering that the most similar cars to Ferrari are Haas and Williams that are the last, Ferrari must have a very well hidden secret to be maybe the 3rd or 4th force in the championship.

[JPower]

It's good that Ferrari are always thinking of protecting reliability I like that safety first approach, but when you compare it to Mercedes where everything is so on the limit its incredible. When you compare the hot air exits the Mercs always run theirs incredibly tiny and they never have reliability issues it's amazing. And how tight their engine cover is. The Merc cars from the W10 to the W12 are just works of art. Shows the difference between them and a team like Ferrari who spend as much as Merc but are nowhere near as good

I don't understand how people can look at the rear air outlets completely isolated from the whole car concept. Every car has a different engine cover. Look at how early the cover starts to drop down on the Ferrari, right after the roll hoop. No other car has it that extreme. For that reason their shark fin is the biggest on the field. Last year it was even bigger, a monster of a shark fin, but this year they changed the design on that part of the cover a bit because they came up with a downwash style sidepod area like Mercedes and Redbull have already had.
What's more, last year they significantly slimmed down the middle part of the engine cover, sort of RedBull style. That was even though they had that extreme drop down after the roll hoop. And it's still like that on the SF21.

As for Mercedes running everything to it's extreme and not having any reliability issues. You might have missed the constant news of them having engine heat issues in the last couple of seasons. They seem to choose to run the engines turned down instead of adjusting the engine cover.

Maybe you'll think differently when you look at the best Ferrari of recent years, the SF70H. A masterpiece of a car with a big air outlet at the back.

So to sum it up, I highly doubt that you can tell that a team is "nowhere near as good" by simply looking at the rear air outlet.

Right!
In fact Ferrari is dramatically behind the top teams not only looking at the rear air outlets.
It's behind in front suspension, in front aero.
It's the only team that didn't raise the front suspension arms (together with Haas) to let more air pass under them to go to the floor and diffuser.
It's one of the 3 teams with an impressively large nose (together with Haas and Williams).
It's behind as a team in general, in strategist, in mechanics and tools too (considering the usual time needed for a pit stop, always longer than the 2 top teams).

To conclude: considering that the most similar cars to Ferrari are Haas and Williams that are the last, Ferrari must have a very well hidden secret to be maybe the 3rd or 4th force in the championship.

We're going off topic but that has not been the case thus far in 2021 IMO.

I don't think the nose or front suspension is as big of a deal you're making it either especially since we have no info on the kinematics of the former and the aero qualities of the latter.

There's no well hidden secret. The car as an entire package is good, just looking at details doesn't tell the entire story.

[FerrariF60]

yeah, the car is NOT that slow with the wide nose cone OR with the lower suspension arms....
if anything the car has pretty good aero as seen in the mid to high speed corners....not as as good as red bull or Merc but way better than McLaren which we're fighting with this year...

our engine is still the weakest link missing 20Hp or so....have we had that it woudl be a different story this year...

[Big Mangalhit]

Right!
In fact Ferrari is dramatically behind the top teams not only looking at the rear air outlets.
It's behind in front suspension, in front aero.
It's the only team that didn't raise the front suspension arms (together with Haas) to let more air pass under them to go to the floor and diffuser.
It's one of the 3 teams with an impressively large nose (together with Haas and Williams).
It's behind as a team in general, in strategist, in mechanics and tools too (considering the usual time needed for a pit stop, always longer than the 2 top teams).

To conclude: considering that the most similar cars to Ferrari are Haas and Williams that are the last, Ferrari must have a very well hidden secret to be maybe the 3rd or 4th force in the championship.

Ferrari in 2019, Front row at Spa 0,7s clear of mercedes! Pole at monza. Haas and alfa top 10.
Then FIA Ferrari engine clampdown
2020 Williams last as always and then in both Monza and Spa all 6 ferrari engine come last

I honestly think it's very obvious what the problem was, The wide nose that won races on 2019 didn't became a dealbreaker from day to night. The wide rear exits that was present in almost every Ferrari of this generation won races.

Every car is different and we simply don't know how the internal aero works, there is no point in doing very small exits if that bottlenecks the air inside and increases drag while providing worse cooling. Maybe having smaller exits implies having a longer car which is not compatible with the rest of the design. I honestly doubt that the engeneers at Ferrari are incable of making a slimmer nose or a split turbo or whatever obvious difference gets singled out every year as the cause for the car to be slower than the silver arrow. But they probably knew that if they copied the design without understanding how and why it is that way they would quickly be in racing point postion.

I think it would be really interesting if we could spot tandem alterations in the front of the car (air intake) when they are experimenting with different size rear exits as they are probably connected

[gordonthegun]

Guys, you keep on saying Ferrari is not that bad, but Ferrari mission is not to be "not that bad", Ferrari has to win!

To fight against Mercedes and Red Bull the car has to be strong in all areas and this is not happening, this was the meaning of my post about the weaknesses of the front of the car.

[JPower]

Guys, you keep on saying Ferrari is not that bad, but Ferrari mission is not to be "not that bad", Ferrari has to win!

To fight against Mercedes and Red Bull the car has to be strong in all areas and this is not happening, this was the meaning of my post about the weaknesses of the front of the car.

Yeah, but that's not the reality right now. So let's focus on the present.