2021 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 25 - 27

[grubschumi13]

The average quali position says nothing about which is the best car. If Gasly, Albon and Perez cannot qualify better, it doesn’t necessarily mean the RBR is a worse car, it might as well mean that they are not quick enough to extract what the car is capable of. Bottas is a good qualifier and always has been, hence he is more likely to qualify closer to Lewis. Perez has not shown any real top pace in his career, and that only gets proven this year. Albon and Gasly were not given much of a chance (at least not compared to Bottas).

I think it’s quite clear that when everything comes together for Merc, they are there. But the RBR gets there much more often and independent of conditions. You can see by the onboards how good it is compared to the Merc this year. Merc is indeed the underdog, and they will most likely not be able to turn it around either because of the limited spending this year.

No it proves Merc has been, still is the quicker package. Max is clearly doing more in lesser equipment.

Wow. You really changed my mind now!

All last year we heard Brundle say "Thank God for Max Verstappen" for hanging onto the Mercs in a vastly inferior car. Despite his car's inferiority he challenged Bottas only finishing 9 points behind Bottas in the all conquering w11.

Now RBR have managed to get a just a little bit more closer to Mercedes, just enough for Max's talent to now match and Hamilton's Mercedes.

If it were Albon and Perez in RBR we would be talking about how Mercedes has dominated for another year. RBR's car is inferior and it is Max making the difference week in week out.

[Artur Craft]

This is nothing new. Been going on for years.

Thanks for info! I missed this as I have not been following F1 closely on the last years(since 2014, goodness, how time flies! )

[Sieper]

This is not one of LH best tracks for qualifying. He will just go for a race setup.

Lewis has been trending this way in his career in general. A younger, faster Lewis, was trying to emulate his racing hero, Ayrton Senna, but as he has gotten older, and likely slowed down just a hair, he now races like an Alain Prost.

It seems natural but no evidence to support in that Lewis' case. If we compare his Q3 times against Bottas at tracks Lewis is considered weak at, like this one.... You might find this is the closest he has every been.

Now (this year) he needs to be. And he has been from the get go. Monaco was somehow the one weekend he was not on the ball with qualifying. But so is Max, right there. His weakest qualy was p3 (by a hair) in Imola imho. And he always is, I have not once seen a weekend where he was of the pace (not talking about a crash or big mistake) with qualy. Still like a dog with a bone he keeps on going and going.

[Pyrone89]

Funny that everytime Lewis is outqualified people quickly say “it’s not a good track for him”. Well, starting to be quite some supposed bad tracks for a 7-times WDC.

Is it that hard for his fans to just admit he was not the best on a given day? Doesn’t mean he is Mazepin level suddenly if you admit that. And in 24 hours everything can be different again, so it is not like we are asking for a permanent judgement of skill

[Just_a_fan]

No it proves Merc has been, still is the quicker package. Max is clearly doing more in lesser equipment.

Wow. You really changed my mind now!

All last year we heard Brundle say "Thank God for Max Verstappen" for hanging onto the Mercs in a vastly inferior car. Despite his car's inferiority he challenged Bottas only finishing 9 points behind Bottas in the all conquering w11.

Now RBR have managed to get a just a little bit more closer to Mercedes, just enough for Max's talent to now match and Hamilton's Mercedes.

If it were Albon and Perez in RBR we would be talking about how Mercedes has dominated for another year. RBR's car is inferior and it is Max making the difference week in week out.

Wrong. No driver can produce more lap time than the car is able to produce. The best drivers get closer to the car's limits. If Max is doing a lap time, then it shows the car is able to do that time. Indeed, it's actually able to do more than that as no human can drive an F1 car at 100% of it potential.

Max might be better than Lewis but the Red Bull is better than the Mercedes on this track on this day.

[Sieper]

Is it. I think it is extremely close. Merc still, again on P2 and P3. As they have been (two cars in the top 3) on most normal race tracks. Come race day Mercedes has had the quicker car most races as well. Like last race. But there an very unexpected undercut and a second stop caught them off guard.

[Pyrone89]

Wow. You really changed my mind now!

All last year we heard Brundle say "Thank God for Max Verstappen" for hanging onto the Mercs in a vastly inferior car. Despite his car's inferiority he challenged Bottas only finishing 9 points behind Bottas in the all conquering w11.

Now RBR have managed to get a just a little bit more closer to Mercedes, just enough for Max's talent to now match and Hamilton's Mercedes.

If it were Albon and Perez in RBR we would be talking about how Mercedes has dominated for another year. RBR's car is inferior and it is Max making the difference week in week out.

Wrong. No driver can produce more lap time than the car is able to produce. The best drivers get closer to the car's limits. If Max is doing a lap time, then it shows the car is able to do that time. Indeed, it's actually able to do more than that as no human can drive an F1 car at 100% of it potential.

Max might be better than Lewis but the Red Bull is better than the Mercedes on this track on this day.

How do you know?

If Perez was ahead of the Mercs I would say yes, but that is not the case.

Perhaps the dominance + underdog talk of Mercedes in all these years people have a shifted paradigm of competitiveness. They seem to only view Mercedes as strongest when they are utterly dominant, when it is actually close they label the Merc as the weaker car just because they are so used to seeing dominant cars of them.

[Just_a_fan]

Funny that everytime Lewis is outqualified people quickly say “it’s not a good track for him”. Well, starting to be quite some supposed bad tracks for a 7-times WDC.

Is it that hard for his fans to just admit he was not the best on a given day? Doesn’t mean he is Mazepin level suddenly if you admit that. And in 24 hours everything can be different again, so it is not like we are asking for a permanent judgement of skill

As has been said for years by those who understand F1, no driver can win in a bad car. The best drivers take the car they have and take it closer to its limits. The Red Bull is the best car this year, just as the Mercedes was the best car last year. Max is making the most of his car. Lewis is making the most of his. Both have 3 wins. Max has 3 poles, Lewis 2 poles. Max has 3 FL, Lewis has 2 FL. On that basis, Lewis is performing better than Max as he ahs a higher conversion ratio. But that is playing in the wind. Both are driving brilliantly. Both should be applauded.

Is Max faster than Lewis these days? Yes, quite possibly/probably. Can Max win in an inferior car? No. As has been seen for several seasons.

Drivers need the car. The best drivers can take the car closer to its limits. It's been that way since year one. It'll be that way until racing ends.

The best drivers are able to produce their best for race after race, year after year. Lots of drivers have had one title. The question is who can produce top level performances year after year after year?

[Tvetovnato]

No it proves Merc has been, still is the quicker package. Max is clearly doing more in lesser equipment.

Wow. You really changed my mind now!

All last year we heard Brundle say "Thank God for Max Verstappen" for hanging onto the Mercs in a vastly inferior car. Despite his car's inferiority he challenged Bottas only finishing 9 points behind Bottas in the all conquering w11.

Now RBR have managed to get a just a little bit more closer to Mercedes, just enough for Max's talent to now match and Hamilton's Mercedes.

If it were Albon and Perez in RBR we would be talking about how Mercedes has dominated for another year. RBR's car is inferior and it is Max making the difference week in week out.

And still, how does this PROVE that the RBR is an inferior car this year?

My base assumption is that both Lewis and Max are most often bringing the absolute best out of their cars’ capabilities. Last year, Bottas was clearly not maximising the cars potential in the standings, hence Max ended up close behind. But you need to compare the best with the best. Again, just because Max puts distance between himself and those drivers, it might still mean that they are not quick enough, or given time enough to really settle in to the team and get closer over time. A driver, no matter how extremely talented he is, cannot drive faster than the car’s capabilities, he can only maximize it. From my view, Verstappen does that most often, but so does Lewis (yes, there can be two drivers of equal talent in the same field).

So that leaves us looking at other factors, such as the rule changes and what teams were hurt the most. RBR now being able to run a skinny wing and still produce enough downforce in the corners, and an extremely well balanced car by the looks of things, speaks for it actually having the edge of the Merc at the moment, in most conditions at least. That’s not an uncommon view either.

And most importantly, that’s perfectly fine. If Max has a faster car, good for him. If Lewis has it, good for him too. It doesn’t have to downplay the other one’s achievements. I guess that’s what bothers me the most, that people seem to think that it has to.

[Pyrone89]

Funny that everytime Lewis is outqualified people quickly say “it’s not a good track for him”. Well, starting to be quite some supposed bad tracks for a 7-times WDC.

Is it that hard for his fans to just admit he was not the best on a given day? Doesn’t mean he is Mazepin level suddenly if you admit that. And in 24 hours everything can be different again, so it is not like we are asking for a permanent judgement of skill

As has been said for years by those who understand F1, no driver can win in a bad car. The best drivers take the car they have and take it closer to its limits. The Red Bull is the best car this year, just as the Mercedes was the best car last year. Max is making the most of his car. Lewis is making the most of his. Both have 3 wins. Max has 3 poles, Lewis 2 poles. Max has 3 FL, Lewis has 2 FL. On that basis, Lewis is performing better than Max as he ahs a higher conversion ratio. But that is playing in the wind. Both are driving brilliantly. Both should be applauded.

Is Max faster than Lewis these days? Yes, quite possibly/probably. Can Max win in an inferior car? No. As has been seen for several seasons.

Drivers need the car. The best drivers can take the car closer to its limits. It's been that way since year one. It'll be that way until racing ends.

The best drivers are able to produce their best for race after race, year after year. Lots of drivers have had one title. The question is who can produce top level performances year after year after year?

You mistake top level performances for top level results. For all we know Russell is the one with the top level performances, but we would never know seeing he is in a Williams for now.

You also equate best car with best quali pace. With race pace the Mercedes is best.

[Just_a_fan]

All last year we heard Brundle say "Thank God for Max Verstappen" for hanging onto the Mercs in a vastly inferior car. Despite his car's inferiority he challenged Bottas only finishing 9 points behind Bottas in the all conquering w11.

Now RBR have managed to get a just a little bit more closer to Mercedes, just enough for Max's talent to now match and Hamilton's Mercedes.

If it were Albon and Perez in RBR we would be talking about how Mercedes has dominated for another year. RBR's car is inferior and it is Max making the difference week in week out.

Wrong. No driver can produce more lap time than the car is able to produce. The best drivers get closer to the car's limits. If Max is doing a lap time, then it shows the car is able to do that time. Indeed, it's actually able to do more than that as no human can drive an F1 car at 100% of it potential.

Max might be better than Lewis but the Red Bull is better than the Mercedes on this track on this day.

How do you know?

If Perez was ahead of the Mercs I would say yes, but that is not the case.

No driver can produce a lap time that the car is unable to produce. If a driver does the time then the car is capable of that time. Anyone that says "he outdrove his car" is an idiot and should be ignored.

Sorry if that doesn't fit the narrative, but it's the truth. The best drivers get the most from their car but they can't more from their car than it is able to give.

[Pyrone89]

Wrong. No driver can produce more lap time than the car is able to produce. The best drivers get closer to the car's limits. If Max is doing a lap time, then it shows the car is able to do that time. Indeed, it's actually able to do more than that as no human can drive an F1 car at 100% of it potential.

Max might be better than Lewis but the Red Bull is better than the Mercedes on this track on this day.

How do you know?

If Perez was ahead of the Mercs I would say yes, but that is not the case.

No driver can produce a lap time that the car is unable to produce. If a driver does the time then the car is capable of that time. Anyone that says "he outdrove his car" is an idiot and should be ignored.

Sorry if that doesn't fit the narrative, but it's the truth. The best drivers get the most from their car but they can't more from their car than it is able to give.

Agree, but not my point.

How do we know which car has the higher ceiling? We would need a robot to drive both cars.

[Just_a_fan]

Funny that everytime Lewis is outqualified people quickly say “it’s not a good track for him”. Well, starting to be quite some supposed bad tracks for a 7-times WDC.

Is it that hard for his fans to just admit he was not the best on a given day? Doesn’t mean he is Mazepin level suddenly if you admit that. And in 24 hours everything can be different again, so it is not like we are asking for a permanent judgement of skill

As has been said for years by those who understand F1, no driver can win in a bad car. The best drivers take the car they have and take it closer to its limits. The Red Bull is the best car this year, just as the Mercedes was the best car last year. Max is making the most of his car. Lewis is making the most of his. Both have 3 wins. Max has 3 poles, Lewis 2 poles. Max has 3 FL, Lewis has 2 FL. On that basis, Lewis is performing better than Max as he ahs a higher conversion ratio. But that is playing in the wind. Both are driving brilliantly. Both should be applauded.

Is Max faster than Lewis these days? Yes, quite possibly/probably. Can Max win in an inferior car? No. As has been seen for several seasons.

Drivers need the car. The best drivers can take the car closer to its limits. It's been that way since year one. It'll be that way until racing ends.

The best drivers are able to produce their best for race after race, year after year. Lots of drivers have had one title. The question is who can produce top level performances year after year after year?

You mistake top level performances for top level results. For all we know Russell is the one with the top level performances, but we would never know seeing he is in a Williams for now.

How am I mistaking those two things? Russell is irrelevant to the discussion of the faster driver/car pairing in Austria.

Or is this the "Russell did well in Bahrain therefore Hamilton is rubbish" line of argument?

[Just_a_fan]

How do you know?

If Perez was ahead of the Mercs I would say yes, but that is not the case.

No driver can produce a lap time that the car is unable to produce. If a driver does the time then the car is capable of that time. Anyone that says "he outdrove his car" is an idiot and should be ignored.

Sorry if that doesn't fit the narrative, but it's the truth. The best drivers get the most from their car but they can't more from their car than it is able to give.

Agree, but not my point.

How do we know which car has the higher ceiling? We would need a robot to drive both cars.

We can only go by the performances we see on a given day. Are the Mercedes and Red Bull better than the rest of the field? Yes, of course. Is the Red Bull better than the Mercedes? Yes, it appears to be so. By how much? Who knows.

Is Max better than Lewis? Yes, maybe. Is Lewis better than Max? Yes, maybe. Is Lewis / Max better than Bottas / Perez? Yes, it appears so.

Is Max 2-3 tenths faster than Lewis? Yes, maybe. How can we tell? We can't. Is Lewis 5-6 tenths faster than Max? Unlikely but it's possible. We can never tell.

Who is faster - Max or Lewis? No one knows. Why? Because they have never driven identical cars in identical conditions. And they never will. So we'll never really know.

Does Lewis have a shed full of trophies? Yes. Does Max? No Will Max get such a haul of trophies? There's a good chance but it's not guaranteed.

The forum will have discussions about who is the best for years to come. And no one will ever be able to say "this driver is the best ever". So why bother?

[Tvetovnato]

No driver can produce a lap time that the car is unable to produce. If a driver does the time then the car is capable of that time. Anyone that says "he outdrove his car" is an idiot and should be ignored.

Sorry if that doesn't fit the narrative, but it's the truth. The best drivers get the most from their car but they can't more from their car than it is able to give.

Agree, but not my point.

How do we know which car has the higher ceiling? We would need a robot to drive both cars.

We can only go by the performances we see on a given day. Are the Mercedes and Red Bull better than the rest of the field? Yes, of course. Is the Red Bull better than the Mercedes? Yes, it appears to be so. By how much? Who knows.

Is Max better than Lewis? Yes, maybe. Is Lewis better than Max? Yes, maybe. Is Lewis / Max better than Bottas / Perez? Yes, it appears so.

Is Max 2-3 tenths faster than Lewis? Yes, maybe. How can we tell? We can't. Is Lewis 5-6 tenths faster than Max? Unlikely but it's possible. We can never tell.

Who is faster - Max or Lewis? No one knows. Why? Because they have never driven identical cars in identical conditions. And they never will. So we'll never really know.

Does Lewis have a shed full of trophies? Yes. Does Max? No Will Max get such a haul of trophies? There's a good chance but it's not guaranteed.

The forum will have discussions about who is the best for years to come. And no one will ever be able to say "this driver is the best ever". So why bother?

This post here, Just a fan, sums it up beautifully, and I thank you. I hope everyone reads this so we can move on.