Honda leaving F1.

[Big Tea]

According to Sky Sports, the Mugen rumours are increasing and Tsunoda will be promoted to AlphaTauri for 2021 anyway (refer to Mugen plans)...

Thoughts?

Is it not a little strange that this PU/Mugen business wasn’t decided earlier? Maybe even done in a way that both announcements (Honda & RB) come at the same time?

Horner confirmed that they’ve known about Honda’s plans for some time now so I don’t understand why this seems like a bit of a scramble and last minute.

They got a year to figure it out or at least the time until Red Bull starts to build their 2022 car. Media makes it more dramatic than it seems. they got time.

There is no such thing as BAD publicity, just publicity.

[PlatinumZealot]

There is enough time for the new engine regulations to be prepared if they want to be in again. It will depend where that regs go. And I'm not that sure if they bring the 2022 PU to next year, if Merc will be that much ahead... We will see...

They say they will. If I have to guess I would think they had their project laid out to rely on race data. The frozen engine rules meant they don't get to sequentially try their parts between races to analyse and upgrade peruodically so they may have been forced to bring everything all at once at the beginning of 2021.

[Big Tea]

There is enough time for the new engine regulations to be prepared if they want to be in again. It will depend where that regs go. And I'm not that sure if they bring the 2022 PU to next year, if Merc will be that much ahead... We will see...

They say they will. If I have to guess I would think they had their project laid out to rely on race data. The frozen engine rules meant they don't get to sequentially try their parts between races to analyse and upgrade peruodically so they may have been forced to bring everything all at once at the beginning of 2021.

They will be allowed to mod for reliability will they not?
So worth bringing something marginal as you can fix reliability but not under powered as you cannot boost power.

[nzjrs]

There is enough time for the new engine regulations to be prepared if they want to be in again. It will depend where that regs go. And I'm not that sure if they bring the 2022 PU to next year, if Merc will be that much ahead... We will see...

They say they will. If I have to guess I would think they had their project laid out to rely on race data. The frozen engine rules meant they don't get to sequentially try their parts between races to analyse and upgrade peruodically so they may have been forced to bring everything all at once at the beginning of 2021.

You mean again? Because that was the story of this year - the covid freeze nixing Hondas 2020 upgrade.

Unquestionably 2021 will be the introduction of the new PU concept.

[Manoah2u]

I'm sure that RBR will put everything into getting that Honda engine (for 2021) in their own posession. They were focusing on 2022 with Honda to 'really' have a go at it,
and i don't believe they'll let Honda's departure take that away from them. Since they're not getting Merc power, and Ferrari power isn't gonna be doing them much good either,
it'll leave Renault power vs 'own' power. Renault still aims more to their 'own' success, so they'd only be handing out 'contractual obligations' instead of an actual partnership.

So the only thing out on the table is 'own' power, and that is obviously 'simply' buying the Honda engine, and the entire Honda F1 engine project, and take it from Honda's hands.
There has been suggestions that AVL in Graz has the potential to fill in the gaps that RedBull is 'missing' themselves, a tech company that already greatly partners RedBull in other areas.

Interestingly, they could find themselves taking over Honda's engineers work, and hire some of those engineers, and implement 'european' ways of working with things. I don't know if that's positive or negative, but i remember atleast at a certain point that between Mclaren and Honda, there were some 'struggles' in their partnership due to the nature of how Japanese business works, or conducts business. Whether there was ever ANY truth to that, i am not aware of, and if that ever occurred between RBR and Honda to me is doubtfull, but IF true, then taking the Honda knowledge in-house, could be the most interesting and positive twist to come from all of this.

It'll turn RedBull into a FULL works team, fully independant, and build an interesting business model for other racing classes to with the way they might learn, develop, and use the V6TH from Honda, and adapt it into their own neccesities.

I am also pretty certain that part of whether Marko and Co will go for this route will depend on whether they are able to - NOW - convince the FIA / F1 group, to KEEP the V6T hybrid formula after 2026. Perhaps with some elements to play with, but not switch to for example 4-cylinder engines, as i'm really wondering whether the investment for 4 years of a 'honda ripoff' (to put it bluntly) is worth the investment if they're going to be forced to do it all over again from scratch with a 4 cylinder. Then again, perhaps they can convince Porsche to build a 4 cyl.

Still, if they do go the route of 'buying' the engine, then i'm expecting much more of RB involvement for 2021 in regards to the engine, and see the engine develop further and further right untill the final race in 2021. I'd also expect a good deal of Honda exposure, and lots of public thanks to Honda as a form of exchange, so they can 'buy' the engine at a 'discount' so to speak.

[Lock2nl]

I'm sure that RBR will put everything into getting that Honda engine (for 2021) in their own posession. They were focusing on 2022 with Honda to 'really' have a go at it,
and i don't believe they'll let Honda's departure take that away from them. Since they're not getting Merc power, and Ferrari power isn't gonna be doing them much good either,
it'll leave Renault power vs 'own' power. Renault still aims more to their 'own' success, so they'd only be handing out 'contractual obligations' instead of an actual partnership.

So the only thing out on the table is 'own' power, and that is obviously 'simply' buying the Honda engine, and the entire Honda F1 engine project, and take it from Honda's hands.
There has been suggestions that AVL in Graz has the potential to fill in the gaps that RedBull is 'missing' themselves, a tech company that already greatly partners RedBull in other areas.

Interestingly, they could find themselves taking over Honda's engineers work, and hire some of those engineers, and implement 'european' ways of working with things. I don't know if that's positive or negative, but i remember atleast at a certain point that between Mclaren and Honda, there were some 'struggles' in their partnership due to the nature of how Japanese business works, or conducts business. Whether there was ever ANY truth to that, i am not aware of, and if that ever occurred between RBR and Honda to me is doubtfull, but IF true, then taking the Honda knowledge in-house, could be the most interesting and positive twist to come from all of this.

It'll turn RedBull into a FULL works team, fully independant, and build an interesting business model for other racing classes to with the way they might learn, develop, and use the V6TH from Honda, and adapt it into their own neccesities.

I am also pretty certain that part of whether Marko and Co will go for this route will depend on whether they are able to - NOW - convince the FIA / F1 group, to KEEP the V6T hybrid formula after 2026. Perhaps with some elements to play with, but not switch to for example 4-cylinder engines, as i'm really wondering whether the investment for 4 years of a 'honda ripoff' (to put it bluntly) is worth the investment if they're going to be forced to do it all over again from scratch with a 4 cylinder. Then again, perhaps they can convince Porsche to build a 4 cyl.

Still, if they do go the route of 'buying' the engine, then i'm expecting much more of RB involvement for 2021 in regards to the engine, and see the engine develop further and further right untill the final race in 2021. I'd also expect a good deal of Honda exposure, and lots of public thanks to Honda as a form of exchange, so they can 'buy' the engine at a 'discount' so to speak.

The most important Honda engineers have already been reallocated. So what is left probably cannot lead the project. And apart from that, if Honda does not allow these engineers to temporarily go elsewhere, they are not likely to leave on their own. Not their style...

Both Marko and Horner have suggested the FIA should change the engine model much sooner than 2026. That is the opposite of keeping the current engines longer than planned...

AVL is not fully capable of building or engineering the current F1 engine. However, they do have knowledge and facilities that may again become interesting for developing Honda EV cars. In exchange of this knowledge, AVL could become a Honda partner in providing the F1 engines to the teams. Though with a significant amount of help from Honda to start with. With a gradual transfer of knowledge it then might be worth a try. But it will only work if RB is prepared to spend a lot of money.

[PlatinumZealot]

Honda can simply sell the engines and the tuning and maintainance of those engines. The track guys from Honda can probably stay with the milton keynes program there to calibrate the engines for the tracks. Other than that... They should not need any deeply specialized engineering talent. Just tune, run and maintain for the three remaining years and they should be fine. Any power gains will be through fuels.

[Big Tea]

Much depends on how far Honda have gone with the concept.
If it in the early or mid stages, I would imagine a good engineering team could keep it competitive for a couple of years, but if they have milked most of the results, it will fall further behind each year.

Which ever way it is, it must be easier to take over a job than to start it off from the ground up.
2 years with this engine, 22-23 and 23-24 and they will need to be developing the next series engine anyway.

[nzjrs]

Honda can simply sell the engines and the tuning and maintainance of those engines. The track guys from Honda can probably stay with the milton keynes program there to calibrate the engines for the tracks. Other than that... They should not need any deeply specialized engineering talent. Just tune, run and maintain for the three remaining years and they should be fine. Any power gains will be through fuels.

Not picking on you here, but if this was true fundementally then it would also be true for Mercedes. Do you think it plausible that Mercedes could also give their entire engine department over to cosworth (or whoever) and keep developing and dominating in the next years? Because it's all maintenance and tuning from (pick a date) here on?

[PlatinumZealot]

[quote=nzjrs post_id=933448 time=1602417305 user_id=29399]
[quote=PlatinumZealot post_id=933348 time=1602376208 user_id=6109]
Honda can simply sell the engines and the tuning and maintainance of those engines. The track guys from Honda can probably stay with the milton keynes program there to calibrate the engines for the tracks. Other than that... They should not need any deeply specialized engineering talent. Just tune, run and maintain for the three remaining years and they should be fine. Any power gains will be through fuels.
[/quote]

Not picking on you here, but if this was true fundementally then it would also be true for Mercedes. Do you think it plausible that Mercedes could also give their entire engine department over to cosworth (or whoever) and keep developing and dominating in the next years? Because it's all maintenance and tuning from (pick a date) here on?
[/quote]

I was joining in the discussion of RedBull continuing the Honda Program. Dodnt you see where i said they would have to freeze the engine because their top engines will have been position to other projects.
I don't think it will happen however. I already stated reasons why.

[JordanMugen]

Not picking on you here, but if this was true fundementally then it would also be true for Mercedes. Do you think it plausible that Mercedes could also give their entire engine department over to cosworth (or whoever) and keep developing and dominating in the next years? Because it's all maintenance and tuning from (pick a date) here on?

Yes, that's much more plausible than Honda doing it, since Mercedes High Performance Powertrains (ex-Ilmor Engineering) is a self-contained company AFAIK. It's not integrated with other Mercedes R&D or activities, and instead stands alone as a motorsport supplier AFAIK.

Whether Cosworth in their big newly accquired MHPP factory would keep dominating is hard to say. It would depend on whether the money is still coming in to fund the power unit program.

[mzso]

What's the point of Honda leaving at the en of 2021, when there's a purported freeze* for 2023?
That's just one more year. Why can't they make a deal with RB of reduced budget PU developments, with RB adding some additional funding as it feels necessary.

*"I think it is important to emphasise that the current rules already provide for freezing in 2023. "

[anthonyfa18]

What's the point of Honda leaving at the en of 2021, when there's a purported freeze* for 2023?
That's just one more year. Why can't they make a deal with RB of reduced budget PU developments, with RB adding some additional funding as it feels necessary.

*"I think it is important to emphasise that the current rules already provide for freezing in 2023. "

Your 100% it sad, they will be still honda pu in rb but called RedBull Powertrain

And if you Listen to Christian podcast there is some insite to the deal

[JordanMugen]

Interestingly, they could find themselves taking over Honda's engineers work, and hire some of those engineers, and implement 'european' ways of working with things. I don't know if that's positive or negative, but i remember atleast at a certain point that between Mclaren and Honda, there were some 'struggles' in their partnership due to the nature of how Japanese business works, or conducts business.

Honda and JAS Motorsport have always got along swimmingly! Honda and Italy is a good fit, as AlphaTauri also shows.

I think the problem is more McLaren's way of doing things.

[JordanMugen]

What's the point of Honda leaving at the en of 2021, when there's a purported freeze* for 2023?
That's just one more year.

I don't think they are going to stay, that's not going to happen.

All Honda fans can hope for is some ongoing sponsorship arrangement to continue to badge/sponsor the Red Bull power units as Honda E:Technology through to the end of 2024. But the messages from Honda don't make it seem like this is a likely outcome.

[AFAIK Honda are not actually paying for the major sponsorship on RB and AT this season, Red Bull have just provided that out of good will. It is a nice last hurrah and it will probably will be the last hurrah, won't it? ...Unless something changes on the badging front and Honda becomes willing to badge the RB powertrain Honda-supported/Honda-manufactured units for 2022-2024.]