Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Facts Only]

New combustion chamber, valves managment,

If they're having to use Tokens to modify fundemental areas like this already it shows to me that Honda's problems could go a lot deeper than just reliabilty of ancillaries and mechatronic components. This is a a problem with the whole way the design process has been undertaken.
I predicted last year that Honda would struggle but I didnt think it would be this bad and I think its only going to get worse. Once Renault get there act together (likely for next season) its going to be a whole lot more painful to watch. The only upside is that they wont have to do any customer units for a while as nobody would want them.

I'm not even hearing word that they are trying to grab people from Brixworth/Viri/Maranello to try and sort this mess out. Back in the days of the Renault dominance Flavio set up a working group of engineers in the UK to modify the Renault engine in competion with Viri to push them to get the very most from it. Honda could do the same with their satelite base in Milton Keynes, nab a load of engineers from HPP/Cosworth/Ilmor/AER/Judd etc etc and let them have a free run at sorting out the engine they have independent from the Honda juggernaught in Japan.

At this point they may need to swallow their pride a bit to stop their reputation being further ruined.

[j.yank]

What is the potential power of the McLaren-Honda PU? I tried to make some calculations using this calculator using the parameters of the Canada 2015 race speed trap of Alonso:
http://www.baranidesign.com/acceleratio ... ation.html

The speed trap is 333.9 km/h recorded around sixth lap when Vetel didn't succeed to pass him (with open DRS) for more than two laps. At this time the weight of the car should be arround 790 kg. The start speed is 133 km/h. If we put 1.3 for Car Frontal Area, 0.95 for Car CD (with closed DRS), 15% for Drive Train Loss the power is comming at 990 hp. Is it possible at all?

[Cold Fussion]

No it isn't.

[j.yank]

No it isn't.

What is wrong with this calculator? Do you have any other explanation for 333.9 km/h at the 6th lap?

[Andres125sx]

If you don´t know the real Cd, it´s all guessing

[Phillyred]

What will be a tragedy for Honda is if the power unit formula is again changed in the coming years (2017). All that $$$ spent on R&D will just be wasted. This is IMO a symptom of the problem that is F1 these days. Trying to save money and cut costs, but really everyone is spending more now than ever it would seem.

[j.yank]

If you don´t know the real Cd, it´s all guessing

This is some kind of info about this: http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/ca ... passing-1/

[Cold Fussion]

No it isn't.

What is wrong with this calculator? Do you have any other explanation for 333.9 km/h at the 6th lap?

990 hp equates to a max ICE power of 830 hp, with a fuel LHV range of 44-50 MJ/kg, this yields a thermal efficiency of 45-51%. 45% BTE would be exceptional for the Mercedes power unit, and almost impossible for the worst PU on the grid. Your CdA figure is off.

[j.yank]

No it isn't.

What is wrong with this calculator? Do you have any other explanation for 333.9 km/h at the 6th lap?

990 hp equates to a max ICE power of 830 hp, with a fuel LHV range of 44-50 MJ/kg, this yields a thermal efficiency of 45-51%. 45% BTE would be exceptional for the Mercedes power unit, and almost impossible for the worst PU on the grid. Your CdA figure is off.

I took the CDA from here: http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/ca ... passing-1/
Also, MGU-K alone generates 160 hp per lap. MGU-H is believed to generate additional 160 hp at least. Last year Renault PU was 760 hp, this year they are claiming potential of 860 hp. If Honda has some innovation in MGU-H (which is unlimited in energy harvesting and delivery), you will not need 830 hp from ICE to get 990 hp. However, most of at all, if you are using much lower values for CDA then you can't explain the speed trap of other teams, too. You will get much lower hp numbers for them that we know are not real.

[Tommy Cookers]

apologies if I've misunderstood, but ....
only ICE power and mu-k power propels the car (this regardless of whether its electricity comes from storage or live from gu-h)
mu-h power propels the compressor

so ICE power + mu-k power = PU power

[j.yank]

apologies if I've misunderstood, but ....
only ICE power and mu-k power propels the car
mu-h power propels the compressor

Actually, MGU-H can deliver its excessive energy to the battery or directly to MGU-K without any limitations. In other words, if the MGU-K receives energy from the battery, this is subject to the 2 MJ limit per lap for delivery to ICE, but when it receives the energy from MGU-H there are no limits. This was one of the major drawbacks of Ferrari PU last year - their MGU-H wasn't connected directly to MGU-K

[Tommy Cookers]

the mu-k action is always limited to a power of 120 kW (161 hp)
so the max total (PU) power cannot ever be more than max ICE power + 161 hp
the mu-k cannot ever be fed electrical power totalling more than sufficient to produce a mechanical power of 120 kW (161 hp)

'without limitations' only affects what fraction of the lap the mu-k can run at 120 kW (161 hp)
ie if there is enough recovered electricity to run the mu-k at 130 kW whenever the driver wants it, the design is wrong


gu-k action is also limited to a power of 120 kW and most tracks give insufficient braking time to reach the energy/lap limit
typically gu-h action supplies more electrical energy for mu-k action than gu-k action supplies for mu-k action

[j.yank]

the mu-k action is always limited to a power of 120 kW (161 hp)
so the max total (PU) power cannot ever be more than max ICE power + 161 hp
the mu-k cannot ever be fed electrical power totalling more than sufficient to produce a mechanical power of 120 kW (161 hp)

'without limitations' only affects what fraction of the lap the mu-k can run at 120 kW (161 hp)
ie if there is enough recovered electricity to run the mu-k at 130 kW whenever the driver wants it, the design is wrong


gu-k action is also limited to a power of 120 kW and most tracks give insufficient braking time to reach the energy/lap limit
typically gu-h action supplies more electrical energy for mu-k action than gu-k action supplies for mu-k action

Read this: http://world.honda.com/Formula-1/powerunit/05/

[hurril]

the mu-k action is always limited to a power of 120 kW (161 hp)
so the max total (PU) power cannot ever be more than max ICE power + 161 hp
the mu-k cannot ever be fed electrical power totalling more than sufficient to produce a mechanical power of 120 kW (161 hp)

'without limitations' only affects what fraction of the lap the mu-k can run at 120 kW (161 hp)
ie if there is enough recovered electricity to run the mu-k at 130 kW whenever the driver wants it, the design is wrong


gu-k action is also limited to a power of 120 kW and most tracks give insufficient braking time to reach the energy/lap limit
typically gu-h action supplies more electrical energy for mu-k action than gu-k action supplies for mu-k action

Read this: http://world.honda.com/Formula-1/powerunit/05/

No, you re-read what Tommy Cookers wrote.

The MGU-k mustn't ever put out more than 120kW worth of power. The `without limitation´ pertains to what fraction of the _energy_ comes from which source, namely: the MGU-h is free to transfer, without limit, any and all produced _energy_, to the MGU-k - it, the -k, however, is not allowed to develop power > 120kW.

Don't put energy and power in the same bag

[ME4ME]

j.yank check out the technical regulations before spreading false information which people might believe for being true.

Technical regs: http://www.fia.com/regulations?search_a ... _fulltext=

PU energi flow chart Appendix 3: