Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

[andrewf1]

I would have posted this in the car thread, but seeing as it is closed:

Seems that Mercedes might bring a new rear suspension and different brake ducts to Monaco - an extension to the Barcelona updates perhaps, because they involved the same components, even though the car's tyre behavior did not improve.

(google translate)

Dieter Zetsche , chairman of Mercedes, do not like to see the W04 start from the front row after the exciting performance in qualifying, and then trudge in the race for the inability to manage the degradation of the rear tires. This is the main flaw that penalizes the car in Brackley and is repeated in a timely manner for almost three years. The heads of the three-pointed star have had a summit with Ross Brawn, Team Principal, to understand what prospects there may be to reverse this trend that does not give too positive image of the brand. The engineers at Mercedes, and among these there is also Aldo Costa, have ensured that a turnaround could be recorded already at the next Monaco Grand Prix. In the Principality , in fact, is expected to debut a new rear suspension, along with new took the brakes, should be part of a package of innovations that are designed precisely to ensure a longer life of the Pirelli tires . Needless to say, the Germans count a lot to help turn the season

source: http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/27401/ ... ospensione

[ringo]

Maybe they haven't looked much into heat dissipation from the wheel and brakes.
Redbull and Ferrari do have quite intricate brake ducting aroun the calipers and rotors. Probably this is the next step for mercedes.

[sidmiester]

i have a feeling whether it's coming from their fuel tank design. i think its not just tire problems they are having. with full fuel load in race day, their pace are abysmal.

whatever the problem that maybe, Ross has horribly failed to solve the problem. 3 years and mercedes still have basic fundamental problem!

if teams like force india, sauber, torro rosso and even poor mclaren have good race pace, and mercedes after 3 years cant even solve the basic problems... then its an issue.

3 years i m surprised that board are still trusting ross. sack him! sure ross has won a lot in the past, but what matters for this team is present and future. if they keep trusting ross, this team would be like honda!

along with ross, i think bob bell should also go with i think they are still with the same chief designer, john owen who happens to be chief designer of the car. he should get a sack too.

bring james allison or paddy lowe... things will get better... with ross and bob bell ... i dont see this team succeeding

[ringo]

It's not over yet. Many races to go. The problem can be solved. It's not fuel tank design.
In malaysia when the car was underfueled it ran pretty well with the redbull. It's quite possible the car is not very aero efficient.
Maybe Mercedes needs too much downforce to set a good lap time, and like redbull damage the tyres when downforce is really high.
However redbull can click back the downforce and still have decent pace while having sensible tyre wear. Though it must be said, it may well be suspension design why downforce reduction is needed.
Whatever it is, i feel it's solvable. They may need to change how they analyze their car a bit to solve the problem.

For all we know, that dang fric system doesn't work well in high temperatures, and it throws out the setup and the tyres get a beating.

[Cocles]

Frustrating day, especially for Hamilton. I winced every time his tires smoked up; I suspect that's why he needed one more stop than Rosberg. I'd say this absolves Loic Bigios to some extent. I assumed that problem was with him, unable to arrange the aero for a BGP-001 without a double-defusor. I'm gobsmacked by just how entrenched into the DNA of this car the rear tire problems are. That said, the first four races were alright, even Bahrain considering Hamilton' awesome charge in the final stint. Strange that the problem seemed to have been improved only to come careening in with a vengeance in Barcelona.

All of that said, nice to hear that Dr. Z apparently came down on them like a brick s***-house. I suspect Wolff will as well.

I'll post this last bit in the car thread when it reopens... The American commentators pointed out that the camber on the rear left tire was unusual, looking either straight or even positive during the race; likely their attempt to eek a little more life out of it.

Nice to hear that they apparently have an entirely new rear suspension that'll be ready for Monaco. Whether it works or not we'll see, but it's nonetheless nice as a fan that they're working hard back at Brackley with the full team engaged instead of people still settling in or the wind tunnel off line etc etc. Let's hope they have the same qualifying results in Monaco; even the W03 kicked-butt there.

@Marcush I love how you vanish from this thread for six months when things are looking up, only to pop in as soon as the team finally has an incredibly horrid day. Never waste an opportunity to kick Merc when they're down, eh? We love you, anyway.

[Shakeman]

Frustrating day, especially for Hamilton. I winced every time his tires smoked up; I suspect that's why he needed one more stop than Rosberg.

Rosberg has had several seasons to practice holding onto tyres so I expect he has several more tricks up his sleeve than Lewis. That was evident from one of Lewis' radio transmissions.

I read a tweet by an F1 Adam Cooper saying that the team had debriefed and there was no fix in sight.

#F1 Heard from Toto Wolff and @LewisHamilton after a lengthy debrief, both basically admitted Merc has no answers yet

[FoxHound]

A lot of people are getting a little bit satisfaction when MGP gets a poleposition or when they are fast in qualifying. Let met tell you this: YOU SHOULDNT.

I WILL.

Why? Because they build a car which is fast over 1 lap, again. Just like they did with W01, W02, W03 and with the present car.

Come again? W01-W03 as quick as the W04 relatively speaking? Sorry, you're plain wrong there. 3 poles out of 5 tells you they are quicker than they have ever been in any guise of this teams history other than 2009.


Do you really even understand the problem, other than "tyres"?

You understand the marriage between Coanda exhaust(revised), FRICS, Pirelli, Rear Aero and suspension geometry?
Can you provide us some alternative avenues of thought rather than smack em over the head with a hammer when you can really see they are attempting everything to get to winning ways?

@Marcush.
You got any tips to hand Wolff on tyre deg/use issues Mercedes face? Seems like it' an easy fix after reading your post.
What are those guys at Brackley doing all this time.....

[pocketmoon]

I read a tweet by an F1 Adam Cooper saying that the team had debriefed and there was no fix in sight.

The car is such an enigma. I don't recall a car quite like it in F1 in terms of Q vs Race. If anything the focus on race pace by the team for Barcelona appears to have made the W04 even more of a quali monster and even worse going backwards. The w03 and w04 have both shown that once light on fuel they can fly during the latter stages of the races. In Barca the pace came from S3 (the 'technical' section). Perhaps the FRIC system is what gives the edge here and perhaps it's the FRIC, under a heavy car, that the tyres don't like? Anyway,the team need to be brave here and perhaps write off a couple of races after Monaco just to spread some variable about with the cars and try and find an island of performance. I'd take a P12 to a P4 that a P1 to a P12 anyday!

Looking for enlightenment!

Rob

[Shakeman]

Looking for enlightenment!

They have this to fix the tyre wear because next year if they fail that will be it. I'm sure Merc's board won't let this continue, it's embarrassing as even the back markers do a better job with tyre life.

COuld their engine maps not be sophisticated enough? You do hear on pit radio teams switching to tyre saving maps and wonder if they're lacking in the way the power is put down? Can anyone comment?

[muhammadtalha-13]

They should try and run 1 race without FRIC suspension system and see what happens. Maybe its the FRIC making them fast over one lap but overworking the tyres...

If they are unable to solve the problem in next 3 to 4 races, i think they should start TESTING for 2014 like they started testing for 2013 last year. Because if FRIC is causing the problem and they add it on the next year's car, it's gonna be OVER for Merc'.

[matt_b]

Given that the next track is monaco starting this thursday I dont think the team will change much, given their qualifying form and traction.

[muhammadtalha-13]

Given that the next track is monaco starting this thursday I dont think the team will change much, given their qualifying form and traction.

It's not starting this thursday but next.

[Cocles]

Wolff talks tires...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107404

[Philledan]

Given that the next track is monaco starting this thursday I dont think the team will change much, given their qualifying form and traction.

quali form yes! traction was poor imo during the race. Hamilton even had trouble accelarating uphill out of turn 8, and was easily breaking traction, with nice black rubbery lines as a result...
I dont know why everyone is so convinced on them scoring well in monaco in this form. Even if they do qualify on the front row, other teams will undercut them, or stay out longer and use the clean air to pull a gap. However, if hamilton and rosberg can use eachother as a buffer to other cars, they could play this out very well. Oh well, no need on speculating is guess, lets see in 2 weeks time what they can bring

[cherok1212]

I wonder if the FRIC system has the ability to be modulated over the entire setup. Say the settings are tuned to a particular circuit then modulate that entire setup according to the varying loads bought on by fuel consumption. Lotus may be a bit more on top of this than Merc seeing that they use a similar system. I'm pretty sure it would be illegal but FRIC opens up a world of possibilities.