2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

[Raleigh]

The more you watch it Verstappen was never making the corner at that speed. I assume that was the crux of the penalty decision. The Stewards will have his telemetry.

Exactly, was about to make the same argument.

How did Max expect to make the corner at that speed/angle anyway? Leclerc took the same line (defending against Norris) after the safety car restart and pretty much had to park up to make turn 2, leaving him defenseless on the Curva Grande. The only way that worked out with Max ahead would be if he barged Hamilton off the track on the turn 2 exit, otherwise Hamilton was gone.

[zeph]

Max getting a penalty for a circuit failure is 100% wrong.

You’re right, the track should be penalized for such a failure!

[ringo]

I think the difference between the two is that one is much less aggravated and more willing to play the long game during the races. That is not debatable which one that is.
What I think annoys Max is that Lewis defense is somewhat progressively stifling and that can be annoying to a driver like him. Max likes to be in control at all times.
Hamilton's style for years is to progressively cut off the attacking driver's line pre-emtively. It's easier said than done however, and Norris tried it a few times and it came off poorly with Perez because it was done too late. It has to be done with the attacking driver's front axle approaching the defender's rear axle and before the apex of the turn.

Nonetheless Max gets angry when he falls into that kind of trap and simply does not back out.
Lewis did it to him in Barcelona I think? So he is not keen on that happening again and that is what we saw today.

He was closed down to a shrinking triangular space and naturally any driver would be forced to come off throttle and get back on the racing line. But Lewis does this in a subtle kind of way; it's perfectly timed. It avoids the argy bargey we usually see with the younger drivers.
Max had pushed him out at turn 4 banging wheels. It was intentional and aggressive from what I saw. No space was left and Lewis was equal axle to axle. Lewis backed out sensibly. He does not take the racing personal. It's just his day job.

In this case, Max was always behind, ie further away from the point of inflection of the turn and was driving into no man's land, but he did not want to fall for that trick and as usual expects a driver to crash into him or give up the corner to him.
I do not think he intentionally parked his car on Lewis' head, but it was his intention to be let through or crash and hope he came out the better one. His comments after were in anger and disregard; not to kill Lewis, but disregard on the outcome.
I do not know if this is skillful driving. Arguably poor race craft; or just lack of respect for others.

Looking at Hamilton, I do not think he is in the same frame of mind as Max. Doesn't seem to be paying Max any attention and he is less desperate as he already has 7 titles. Today I do not think he expected Max to come along that much and neither did he want to block Max, as he had all right to push max out like Max did him at turn 4, but instead Lewis left some racing room, as we saw earlier Lewis has no problem conceding.
He was simply at the corner first and defending his run towards turn 3.

[jz11]

jesus, some here and not just here have REALLY short memory, Damon Hill for example, who defended Lewis after Silverstone now says Max did this on purpose because he had no real chance of overtake, and Lewis did at Silverstone?!?! freakin hypocrite.... when Max was pushed off road and onto the sausage curb by Lewis who didn't leave room for him (just the same way Max did in T4 on opening lap, basically same thing in reverse), at worst this was a racing accident, and contact was made mostly due to Maxes actions, and since it wasn't lap one, but mid race, penalty was justified, because he had the escape road option open to him to avoid near certain collision - that is what the stewards had to say in their report, not the "not far enough along side" nonsense...

Max expected Lewis to back out in Silverstone, he didn't - accident, Lewis pushing Max to use the escape road - accident, tit for tat, all fun and games till someone gets seriously hurt because the spineless stewards can't hand out penalties that really teach them to start respecting each other, just creating more unnecessary drama...

[Spacepace]

Max getting a penalty for a circuit failure is 100% wrong.

You’re right, the track should be penalized for such a failure!

10 place grid penalty to the organizers

[pantherxxx]

I don't understand the official reasoning for a penalty by the FIA. "In the opinion of the Stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late"
But why was it too late? Is there a rule which says that? When they reached the apex Max was clearly halfway alongside, at the exit from the apex Max was more than halfway past the defender at the apex. So why didn't Lewis gave more space?

[JordanMugen]

But Lewis does this in a subtle kind of way; it's perfectly timed. It avoids the argy bargey we usually see with the younger drivers.

I'm not sure I follow. Hamilton was the one judged at fault in two collisions with young driver Albon. Not the other way around.

[Schuttelberg]

I think Lewis is finding out that there is more to life than running Nico Rosberg out of road.

I don't think this like Silverstone warrants any penalties but dare I say that the reigning world champion is to blame more for both crashes.

Still hurt with HAM's thrashing of VET . You used to be one of the objective posters. Seems hate consumed you also.

To be honest with you, I didn't see any thrashing. If that makes you sleep well, that's fine.

[Schuttelberg]

I think Lewis is finding out that there is more to life than running Nico Rosberg out of road.

I don't think this like Silverstone warrants any penalties but dare I say that the reigning world champion is to blame more for both crashes.

Hamilton did get a 10 second penalty at Silverstone, but I feel like that was more because one of the cars came out of that collision. I see this one as swaying more to Verstappen's fault because he could have pulled out but I don't think there will be penalties because both cars crashed out.

Max was on the green stuff and basically had nowhere to go in T1 or T2. As I said, I don't think Silverstone warranted a penalty, and I don't think this one does. Anyway, the penalty at Silverstone was an eyewash.

I think to say things like Max did this on purpose and Lewis backed out of it earlier is just what Alonso said earlier in the year about it being a British sport with British media and people trying to destroy Max. Lewis backing out earlier on Lap 1 does not make it right. He or anyone isn't the holy grail of racing. People make mistakes and clearly the stewards made one today.

[Schuttelberg]

jesus, some here and not just here have REALLY short memory, Damon Hill for example, who defended Lewis after Silverstone now says Max did this on purpose because he had no real chance of overtake, and Lewis did at Silverstone?!?! freakin hypocrite.... when Max was pushed off road and onto the sausage curb by Lewis who didn't leave room for him (just the same way Max did in T4 on opening lap, basically same thing in reverse), at worst this was a racing accident, and contact was made mostly due to Maxes actions, and since it wasn't lap one, but mid race, penalty was justified, because he had the escape road option open to him to avoid near certain collision - that is what the stewards had to say in their report, not the "not far enough along side" nonsense...

Max expected Lewis to back out in Silverstone, he didn't - accident, Lewis pushing Max to use the escape road - accident, tit for tat, all fun and games till someone gets seriously hurt because the spineless stewards can't hand out penalties that really teach them to start respecting each other, just creating more unnecessary drama...

I think it's fair to say that 99% of the media is rubbish. Was shocked Brundle felt Lewis was to blame and not Max.

[dans79]

I don't understand the official reasoning for a penalty by the FIA. "In the opinion of the Stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late"
But why was it too late? Is there a rule which says that? When they reached the apex Max was clearly halfway alongside, at the exit from the apex Max was more than halfway past the defender at the apex. So why didn't Lewis gave more space?

https://i.imgur.com/e0lUrdf.jpeg

As I mentioned earlier, they don't think he was alongside early enough in the braking zone, and as i mentioned they are basically inferring it was a divebomb around the outside (something that you almost never see).

Watch Max's onboard, he was well into the braking zone before he was alongside Lewis. He had downshifted I think 4 times before he had any overlap with Lewis. I say think as its hard to hear over crofty rambling.....


Generally the stewards want you to have an overlap before the braking zone or just as you are entering it.

[pantherxxx]

I don't understand the official reasoning for a penalty by the FIA. "In the opinion of the Stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late"
But why was it too late? Is there a rule which says that? When they reached the apex Max was clearly halfway alongside, at the exit from the apex Max was more than halfway past the defender at the apex. So why didn't Lewis gave more space?

https://i.imgur.com/e0lUrdf.jpeg

As I mentioned earlier, they don't think he was alongside early enough in the braking zone, and as i mentioned they are basically inferring it was a divebomb around the outside (something that you almost never see).

Watch Max's onboard, he was well into the braking zone before he was alongside Lewis. He had downshifted I think 4 times before he had any overlap with Lewis. I say think as its hard to hear over crofty rambling.....


Generally the stewards want you to have an overlap before the braking zone or just as you are entering it.

But Lewis kept the door open so Verstappen managed to get alongside Lewis at the apex. When the contact did occur they were alongside so it's a racing incident imo.

[langedweil]

You’d be correct if we saw the same incidents happening with Hamilton and other drivers but we don’t.

Yeah, well .. we did in 2016, the last few years there was noone that Ham competed with except for Bot. Only then James would be on the radio ...

Come on, you know and I know that comment is horses**t

No, it's not .. but apparently we do disagree on that matter.
There just wasn't any extra-team rivalry on track during the hybrid era; that's no complaint against Ham, good for him to achieve what he achieved in those years. But it's a fact he didn't have to fight very hard to accomplish that.

Let's agree we do not agree ...

[dans79]

But Lewis kept the door open so Verstappen managed to get alongside Lewis at the apex. When the contact did occur they were alongside so it's a racing incident imo.

I think you will find that's why they said lewis was "was driving an avoiding line". Lewis had to leave space because of the speed differential, if he came out of the pits and just swept over directly in front of max, he would have taken all the air of maxi's front wind and Max would have rear-ended him.

In that case Lewis would have gotten a penalty for moving under braking and causing a collision.

[Edax]

This is what racing used to be like. This is what got me hooked.


Now today it would have probably led to 50 grid places penalty and a zillion license points for divebombing, crowding someone of the track, wheel banging, overtaking outside the track limits etc. Stewards would have been busy for a month to sort this out.

As said before I agree with a penalty for Ves, simply because he lost control and they crashed. But all this talk about he shouldn’t have tried and he is too aggressive…

Starting point point should be that you let them race, be aggressive, enjoy when it goes right and accept that sometimes it it goes wrong.

Otherwise what is the point of F1?