Verstappen/Vergne blather

[rayden]

sorry guys but that's nonsense. If JEV really 'earned' something, he would have had it by now. I remember the craze last year about Daniel getting the RedBull seat over JEV, and look what happens; Daniel pulverises Vettel and JEV has trouble keeping up with a friggin russian Rookie.

What?

Over the two years Ricciardo and Vergne drove together the difference was 1 point.
You point out that Ricciardo is "pulverizing" Vettel but ignores the above.
They beat each other by 6 and 7 points respectively. Vergne while he was a rookie.
That would be like Kvyat beating Vergne by 6-7 points this year. Do you have any grasp on how huge that would be?

Then you make a claim that he has trouble keeping up with a "frigging Russian rookie" when he´s got over twice the points of Kvyat.
Not to mention it could have been even more when he was in for another 6th place in Monaco.

Also looking at RIC/VER best result in a race, Vergne beat him in both years. First racking up three 8th places to Ricciardo´s 4 9th places. Second year Vergne got home in 6th. Ricciardo´s best result that year was 7th.

Good job with the propaganda, the media must have gotten you really good.
I´m genuinely amazed at how overlooked Vergne is.
He´s already proven he can go toe to toe with Ricciardo (the guy who now obliterates Vettel most of the time)

I'm sorry, but that is not correct.
It was one of the widest gaps between team mates on the pitlane.
Points are a terrible way to judge driver performance if the car is not capable of scoring them consistently.
The average Q gap between them was half a second over 2 years. RIC was also way outfront in head to head finishes when both made it to the end.
Horner said in an interview this week that RIC is the fastest driver they have ever had on the simulator.

I am amazed this keeps being said.

[SectorOne]

I'm sorry, but that is not correct.
It was one of the widest gaps between team mates on the pitlane.

It is correct. The gap was only big in Qualifying, an area you don´t get points.
In the races Vergne on several occasions outdrove Ricciardo. That´s a fact.

RIC was also way outfront in head to head finishes when both made it to the end.

No he wasn´t. Vergne was the one with the best race finishes both years.

[jato]

It is correct. The gap was only big in Qualifying, an area you don´t get points.
In the races Vergne on several occasions outdrove Ricciardo. That´s a fact.

No he wasn´t. Vergne was the one with the best race finishes both years.

Sorry this is off topic, but did you watch the races? I would like to see where you thought Vergne was the one with the best race finishes in both years.

Qualifying

- Vergne had the worse record against a team-mate other than Hulk/Gut.
- Vergne's averaging qualifying gap was up to half a second quicker in most of the times he was beaten, also one it not the highest in averages across all team-mates.

Races

- The best race Vergne had was Canada where he finished 6th
- Monaco was good too but he was lucky with points given the incident with Kimi, Perez retiring and other cars.

- Ricciardo was on a 5 race points streak until he got the penalty in Japan
- Ricciardo finished 2 seconds behind the Ferrari in China when in qualifying Button was wow'd by his qualifying performance

Races where Vergne finished in front

- Ricciardo finished right behind Vergne in Hungary when STR gave Ricciardo the worse 2 stop strategy thinking they would make the tires last. Only the Lotus's managed to make this work because their car was the best at looking after the tires. Despite making Q3, wasting extra tires, being 12 seconds in front of Vergne before his tires fell off a cliff and STR still kept him out on a poor strategy, he finished right behind Vergne
- Ricciardo was ahead by 12 seconds of Vergne in Korea in 2012 before his brakes gave way, Vergne inherited his points
- Ricciardo was also on for points in Monza before his car failed on the last lap
- Ricciardo despite getting a drive through in Japan (see above) still finished right behind Vergne. Drive through would have cost him 20+ seconds

Other fun facts where Ricciardo was the better/faster racer

- Ricciardo kept Schumacher behind in the inferior STR when the Merc was easily up to a second quicker for points in Japan
- Ricciardo kept Alonso behind in the inferior STR against Alonso in India to also score points
- Majority of points Vergne has against Ricciardo were either wet/mixed conditions, dry races head to head Ricciardo smashes him in points
- Ricciardo would have used more sets of tires by making Q3 a lot more times than Vergne ever did which compromised his race along with STR's poor strategy pit wall
- Ricciardo makes barely any mistakes throughout a season and is decent under pressure (see Alonso/Schumi hounding him down) and is better in his feedback

Other than last week's Singapore grand prix and Canada last year, when was the last time Vergne had a decent race? Vergne does not deserve a top ride. Midfield and lower. Just going by points standings in the midfield does not tell the whole story between team-mates all the time.

Back on topic

Should be same story as usual, Merc ahead of RB/Ferrari/Williams. Williams should be back to where they were before.

[SectorOne]

Sorry this is off topic, but did you watch the races? I would like to see where you thought Vergne was the one with the best race finishes in both years.

Oh yea i watch the races.

Sure, let´s use Wikipedia.

2012,


2013,


I watch the Formula 1 that´s on TV, maybe you watch a different one then everyone else.

Over these two years, ONE POINT separated them in total accumulated points. Ricciardo was very quick in Qualifying no doubt but there´s no points in Qualifying unfortunately for him.

Edit: downvoted for pure facts, this forum is funny like that.

[Phil]

To be fair, I think overal race performance is more difficult to assess in a midfield team than it is on a front-running team. Why? Because midfield teams rarely let their team-mates race each other comparably, but usually opt to split strategies in order to gamble that may or may not pay off. Sauber used to be a team where this is quite visible, where Perez, thanks to alternative strategies, would usually outperform Kamui who qualified better. Or ForceIndia, with Perez/Hulkenberg.

I'll be honest in that I haven't followed Vergne and Ricciardo too closely during their 2012 and 2013 season, so I'm not on anyones side. I actually thought they were pretty evenly matched for the most part, but I usually put more weight into the qualifying performance of a driver because there are less factors to consider. It's all about pure pace there - whereas the race always seems to add lots of (mostly unforseen) factors that change the picture. Those factors might put you into traffic, or stuff up your pit window because of an ill-timed safetycar etc. There's a lot of luck involved and if both drivers are racing under different strategies, there isn't much level ground to compare them directly. Sure, qualifying doesn't give points, but it's usually a good indicator on how strong pace wise a driver is.

Either way, I think Vergne has shown to be quite a good racer (like arguably both TR drivers before him) and IMO should retain a seat in F1.

[djos]

JEV is a has been.... End of story, now it's another driver's chance to prove himself.

[jato]

Sorry this is off topic, but did you watch the races? I would like to see where you thought Vergne was the one with the best race finishes in both years.

Oh yea i watch the races.

Sure, let´s use Wikipedia.

2012,
http://i.imgur.com/jpZbGfY.jpg

2013,
http://i.imgur.com/k7tcg0z.jpg

I watch the Formula 1 that´s on TV, maybe you watch a different one then everyone else.

Over these two years, ONE POINT separated them in total accumulated points. Ricciardo was very quick in Qualifying no doubt but there´s no points in Qualifying unfortunately for him.

Wow really, all you do is go back to the points table? No actually arguments for where JEV was the actual better racer? Even in races where JEV finished ahead of DR you can't come up with anything other than look at the points table? Weak argument...

Where JEV had something in hand over DR was mixed/wet conditions, here is where JEV was the better driver. I think DR's mixed/wet condition drying has definitely improved this year. DR needs to improve his starts and first lap and he has recognised that.

If you want to go by points, the majority of points JEV accumulated was in mixed/wet conditions. Dry running weekends DR smashed him in terms of points, not to mention end of 2013 tally.

JEV has had his chance, one or two good races in a season is not good enough.

[SectorOne]

Wow really, all you do is go back to the points table? No actually arguments for where JEV was the actual better racer?

My mistake, i thought you made this statement, "I would like to see where you thought Vergne was the one with the best race finishes in both years."

And i showed you.

Weak argument...

So far i seem to be the only one of us that has one at least.

Where JEV had something in hand over DR was mixed/wet conditions, here is where JEV was the better driver. I think DR's mixed/wet condition drying has definitely improved this year. DR needs to improve his starts and first lap and he has recognised that.

Yea Vergne is very good in the wet, showed it once again in Hungary. And in the dry by grabbing a 6th in a bone dry race with two 5 second penalties on top of that.

If you want to go by points, the majority of points JEV accumulated was in mixed/wet conditions.

Are you delibirately trying to misinform people? Or maybe it´s just you that is misinformed?

Vergne had four point scores in 2012, four 8th places. 2 of them was done in bone dry conditions.
Funnily enough both those races Ricciardo finished 9th.

2013 Vergne had three point scoring positions, all three was arguably bone dry. Some light drizzle in Malaysia that´s about it.

From my perspective it´s clear you are not interested in facts.
You´ve already set up your own world view distinct from the real world.

The facts show that the majority of Vergne´s points come from bone dry conditions.

JEV has had his chance, one or two good races in a season is not good enough.

I´d say he´s just as good as Ricciardo. Incredibly even when it comes to points.
Which coincidentally was the case in F3.5 when they ran there.

[Manoah2u]

so to turn this conversation away from vergne and into verstappen.....12th on first real f1 participation in a car he's never driven before just 4 tenths off kvyat whom was carrying more experience with his ride and had an updated car (nose).
announced he wouldn't go flat out for it's about 'experience' and not 'performance'.
if he indeed did not go all out.....then 12th on his 'maiden' voyage in a f1 weekend is sublime.

if i'm correct, he'll ride at COTA aswell? can't wait for 2015 shaping up

(oh and to boot up the vergne conversations.................where would jevvie jev be in this session?)

[SiLo]

so to turn this conversation away from vergne and into verstappen.....12th on first real f1 participation in a car he's never driven before just 4 tenths off kvyat whom was carrying more experience with his ride and had an updated car (nose).
announced he wouldn't go flat out for it's about 'experience' and not 'performance'.
if he indeed did not go all out.....then 12th on his 'maiden' voyage in a f1 weekend is sublime.

if i'm correct, he'll ride at COTA aswell? can't wait for 2015 shaping up

(oh and to boot up the vergne conversations.................where would jevvie jev be in this session?)

I was going to say the same thing. He seemed very good in a car he had never driven before, and even said he was nowhere near the limit because he just wanted miles under the belt. I'm sorry but if that doesn't say incredible natural talent I don't know what does.

[Jano11]

Stop the hating for crying out loud.

Pot, kettle.... LOL

[Jano11]

JEV is a has been.... End of story, now it's another driver's chance to prove himself.

Funny how Ricciardo didn't have an easy time against a has been.

[Jano11]

if i'm correct, he'll ride at COTA aswell? can't wait for 2015 shaping up

I rather hope that he'll drive, riding is for bicycles, horses etc...

[djos]

JEV is a has been.... End of story, now it's another driver's chance to prove himself.

Funny how Ricciardo didn't have an easy time against a has been.

What aside from smashing him by an average of 1/2 a second in qually and making Q3 more often than not (as opposed to almost never) and JEV only getting close to him in the races by virtue of having more sets of unused tires from missing Q3 by being too slow!

[Raleigh]

I'm not sure we are saying Vergne is better than Ricciardo?

But what is for certain, watching Ricciardo destroy Vettel, Vergne's performance at STR suddenly becomes a lot more impressive...

And this year, watching Vergne jump Rosberg and then hold him off in Hungary, watching Vergne carving through the field at Singapore, you can see this is a genuinely talented driver.

Vergne has race pace comparable to Ricciardo's, excellent racecraft demonstrated this year (and also in previous years, he always used to come through the pack), maybe not so strong in qualifying as Ricciardo but quicker in the wet (I've always liked drivers who shine in the wet, a true demonstration of talent).

Vergne definitely deserves to be driving in F1 next year, I hope he does not share the same fate as other drivers passed up by RB and STR.