Are big front wheels the real problem?

[Just_a_fan]

Some would argue that F1 should be the pinnacle and most technologically advanced series. If that is the want then all those systems mentioned would be included. I don’t agree. I want to see driver skill, does that mean we should go high HP and no downforce.... I don’t think that is the answer either.

I think the "pinnacle of motorsport" title applies as much to the drivers as the car, to be honest. Indeed, I think it really applies to the drivers who are [should be] the best drivers in the world. There's an argument to be had about the top rally drivers being as good/better but if one looks at single seaters/single occupant racing, F1 drivers are right up there at the top.

[smellybeard]

I personally think the whole car needs to come down in size, we have got to a stage with these much smaller engines when we have [imo] a ridiculous amount of flat floor space and overall volume. Making them 3/4 of the size they are now may also help with narrower tracks.

Absolutely.
Weight is out of control too.

[DiogoBrand]

https://i.postimg.cc/FzDMF8QD/cp.jpg

I personally think the whole car needs to come down in size, we have got to a stage with these much smaller engines when we have [imo] a ridiculous amount of flat floor space and overall volume. Making them 3/4 of the size they are now may also help with narrower tracks.

I honestly don't know where people got the idea that making the cars wider made them worse on narrow tracks. Pre-2017 were as bad as the current ones on narrow tracks, and for overtaking overall. Also when the cars were made narrower in 1998 it made no difference at all for overtaking.

[JordanMugen]

Making them 3/4 of the size they are now may also help with narrower tracks.

I must disagree. I think a Grand Prix car should be wide, and mean looking...



How wide? 2.15m

[Mattchu]

I honestly don't know where people got the idea that making the cars wider made them worse on narrow tracks. Pre-2017 were as bad as the current ones on narrow tracks, and for overtaking overall. Also when the cars were made narrower in 1998 it made no difference at all for overtaking.

It`s not so much the overtaking, I just feel the current cars look like Maybachs/Rolls Royces with far to much wasted space. I`d like F1 cars to have smaller sidewalls on the tyres, not sure if that`s feasible though!

I must disagree. I think a Grand Prix car should be wide, and mean looking... and noisy

https://cdn-5.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... ri-643.jpg

How wide? 2.15m

I don`t disagree that F1 cars should look mean, surely they could find a better balance though.

[smellybeard]

I`d like F1 cars to have smaller sidewalls on the tyres, not sure if that`s feasible though!

Smaller sidewalls just for the sake of it is entirely against the spirit of FIA Formula racing. The sidewall dimension follows from the engineering requirement. The engineers want particular compliance and slip characteristics from the largest tire they can fit usefully and this is what they've come up with.

Single source tires over such a long period has been bad for F1. At the moment the biggest design issue is what colour to make the sidewalls and how shiny they are. We need a couple of years of tire wars to reboot the boots.

[OO7]

why would it be a problem? wider front tires = more mechanical grip

It's not really "more" is it? Just more on the front?

You could have narrower front tyres and shorter wheelbase with less weight distribution on the front instead. There is no reason for a mid-engine rear drive car to have so much weight on front axles --- that is only because of the rules and wide front tyres.

I am in favour of a return to pre-2017 front tyre width: 25.0"x10.0"-13" (or 245/660-R13 for Pirelli metric front tyres, pre-2017 size, which is still used in F2).

This front tyre size was basically maintained from Goodyear era until 2016, after which the front and rear tyres were scaled equally for 2017. Previously, the reduction in rear tyre width of 1993 was NOT accompanied by an equal scaling down of the front tyres.

I agree with your favouritism JM, however I'd just like to mention that I'm not sure about the precise timeframes, however pre and post 1993 the tyre diameters were 25 inches (635 mm) for the fronts and 26 inches (660 mm) for the rears, then at some point the fronts were increased to 660mm.

[DiogoBrand]

I`d like F1 cars to have smaller sidewalls on the tyres, not sure if that`s feasible though!

Smaller sidewalls just for the sake of it is entirely against the spirit of FIA Formula racing. The sidewall dimension follows from the engineering requirement. The engineers want particular compliance and slip characteristics from the largest tire they can fit usefully and this is what they've come up with.

Single source tires over such a long period has been bad for F1. At the moment the biggest design issue is what colour to make the sidewalls and how shiny they are. We need a couple of years of tire wars to reboot the boots.

Smaller sidewalls just for the sake of it?
The big sidewalls are probably one of the most outdated aspects of F1, when small rim diameter was the best possible way to prevent teams from fitting bigger brakes. They take away from engineers the ability to properly control suspension travel and just don't belong in a motorsport as advanced as F1.
I'd actually say the opposite of what you said: Big sidewalls are entirely against the spirit of FIA Formula racing.

[henry]

I`d like F1 cars to have smaller sidewalls on the tyres, not sure if that`s feasible though!

Smaller sidewalls just for the sake of it is entirely against the spirit of FIA Formula racing. The sidewall dimension follows from the engineering requirement. The engineers want particular compliance and slip characteristics from the largest tire they can fit usefully and this is what they've come up with.

Single source tires over such a long period has been bad for F1. At the moment the biggest design issue is what colour to make the sidewalls and how shiny they are. We need a couple of years of tire wars to reboot the boots.

Smaller sidewalls just for the sake of it?
The big sidewalls "..... They take away from engineers the ability to properly control suspension travel and just don't belong in a motorsport as advanced as F1.
I'd actually say the opposite of what you said: Big sidewalls are entirely against the spirit of FIA Formula racing.

Controlling the current tyres with their tall sidewalls is just a different engineering challenge from controlling tyres with short sidewalls. It requires different techniques but the challenge is the same. If you go back to the 90s and compare the damping of the tyre movement as the cars ride curbs with the same operation today you’ll see that the engineers have become much better at that control. In return they get much more compliance than short sidewalls as the tyres deform over the serrations of the curbs and hence better grip. Probably better grip than can be achieved by short sidewalls and the associated suspension.

The wheel assembly will also have higher mass, making the cars heavier, and also higher rotational inertia, both of which will slow the acceleration of the cars.

[jjn9128]

I agree with your favouritism JM, however I'd just like to mention that I'm not sure about the precise timeframes, however pre and post 1993 the tyre diameters were 25 inches (635 mm) for the fronts and 26 inches (660 mm) for the rears, then at some point the fronts were increased to 660mm.

The only rulebooks I have from the 90's are 1994 and 1997. Both regulations specify a maximum wheel/tyre diameter of 26" and a maximum wheel width of 15". That doesn't mean the fronts weren't smaller though. I think the front and rear diameters became matched in '98 when the narrower, grooved tyres came in.

Smaller sidewalls just for the sake of it?
The big sidewalls are probably one of the most outdated aspects of F1, when small rim diameter was the best possible way to prevent teams from fitting bigger brakes. They take away from engineers the ability to properly control suspension travel and just don't belong in a motorsport as advanced as F1.
I'd actually say the opposite of what you said: Big sidewalls are entirely against the spirit of FIA Formula racing.

Agreed. Even if it's just for the marketing of the tyre supplier(s) smaller sidewalls are the way to go. Sidewall compliance on these cars is huge, as much as 50mm or just under 1/3 of the sidewall height from the downforce alone, and a lot of money/effort is spend minimizing the aerodynamic effect of the balloon like tyres. From 2021 they're not going to be that low profile though, 270/720-18 on the front and 405/720-18 on the rear (maybe the fronts will be 700mm but I think Pirelli have said 720mm all around). Compared to Formula E who use 240/640-18 and 270/680-18.

[NL_Fer]

Smaller front tyres would make the cars more limited on front grip and understeery als a result. Not that exciting.

[Tommy Cookers]

a Mr Tyrrell had F1 cars designed around having such small diameter front wheels that they needed four
but his friend Mr Scheckter found one day that the car was very nearly as quick with only three front wheels fitted
that made Mr Tyrrell and his designer do a bit of thinking
and some Can-Am car (UOP?) was designed around (2) unusually small front wheels

[JordanMugen]

I`d like F1 cars to have smaller sidewalls on the tyres, not sure if that`s feasible though!

Smaller sidewalls just for the sake of it is entirely against the spirit of FIA Formula racing. The sidewall dimension follows from the engineering requirement. The engineers want particular compliance and slip characteristics from the largest tire they can fit usefully and this is what they've come up with.

I have to say I disagree on your techical points. AFAIK, the *only* reason the teams use 13" wheels is because that is the maximum size by rule.

IIRC, in the 1960's and 1970's F1 teams already used 15" wheels instead of 13" when they had free choice... [ A size that USAC/CART/Indycar uses to this day! ]




One presumes F1 teams would have then progressed to ever larger wheel sizes (up to 17" then 19" and so on) as tyre technology progressed over the years, IF they had the choice to do so.

Changing the sizes to be consistent with LMP1 wheels and tyres (where LMP's 18" limit is already an artificial cap, in an era where road cars come with 20" wheels and larger) is perfectly sensible IMO.

[mcjamweasel]

I honestly don't know where people got the idea that making the cars wider made them worse on narrow tracks. Pre-2017 were as bad as the current ones on narrow tracks, and for overtaking overall. Also when the cars were made narrower in 1998 it made no difference at all for overtaking.

It`s not so much the overtaking, I just feel the current cars look like Maybachs/Rolls Royces with far to much wasted space. I`d like F1 cars to have smaller sidewalls on the tyres, not sure if that`s feasible though!

I must disagree. I think a Grand Prix car should be wide, and mean looking... and noisy

https://cdn-5.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... ri-643.jpg

How wide? 2.15m

I don`t disagree that F1 cars should look mean, surely they could find a better balance though.

For me the length of the current cars is the main aesthetic issue with them. They need the wheelbase reducing by at least 50cm to get them more in proportion.

[voice_of_reason]

Some of this might be relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMTvbcchDfw