Mercedes - the eternal debating abyss.

[wunderkind]

Ola Kallenius was the Head of MHPE. But or many years, the chief engine designers were Andy Cowell and Axel Wendorff. Wendorff left some time ago and I think Cowell is now the sole Chief.

[wunderkind]

...
Thirdly, it is only economical to make things in Germany if you are taking about huge volumes. For anything bespoke or low volume, the UK is the place to do it.

Quite obviously, opportunities to get things made swift and certain in Italy is vastly overshadowing Germany in this respect?

How long did it take Ferrari to get things right? The Italians themselves are quite capable, but Nigel Stepney certainly contributed a great deal during his time at Maranello.

[Pup]

Your idea of Mercedes moving all it's F1 operations back to Germany is a fanciful one that has been dismissed time and time again. It's a romantic notion, but that's it.

In the list of adjectives used to describe German industry, 'romantic' is an unexpected find.

[wunderkind]

Your idea of Mercedes moving all it's F1 operations back to Germany is a fanciful one that has been dismissed time and time again. It's a romantic notion, but that's it.

In the list of adjectives used to describe German industry, 'romantic' is an unexpected find.

I was merely trying to describe Seijakessen's idea of a true Mercedes GP team should be based in Germany run by Germans.

[mep]

Firstly, the pool of top notch F1 design and engineering expertise and experience in Germany is small. That means Mercedes will have to either start from scratch or hiring expats from all over Europe to live and work in Germany at great expense. Also, taxes are lower in the UK. The German language is also an issue. Like it or not, being in Germany means german will be the default language. But the F1 rules are written in English and having designers and engineers with English as their first language is an advantage.

Secondly, there is a small but very competent band of external parts and technology suppliers in the UK that do not exist in Germany. That means Mercedes will have to do even more things in-house to replicate the services provided by these external suppliers.

Thirdly, it is only economical to make things in Germany if you are taking about huge volumes. For anything bespoke or low volume, the UK is the place to do it.

Hahahaha that is all just so wrong.
If you want to do something in high volume you better go to China. Everybody knows that.
Apart from that is engineering regarded so much higher in Germany than it is in the UK. Germany is actually great in low volume, specialised machinery, high class engineering and development. It is rather funny that UK still tries to do research and development with all their health and safety restrictions.
F1 teams are only located in the UK because their history originates there, meaning they were founded there. I guess motorsport is just of less interest for Germans which might be because it is hard to make money with it. However Sauber for example shows that it is possible to run a F1 team outside of UK. And btw. Germans are actually able to learn English and to understand the rules It is rather a question if English people are able to learn German.

[xpensive]

....
In the list of adjectives used to describe German industry, 'romantic' is an unexpected find.

That one-liner alone is worth a vote, while I couldn't care less if I lose three in the process, "Dix points" Pup!

[SeijaKessen]

Why I guess that Ron the Con just went along with Peugeot and Chrysler because he was both gulleable and good-hearted?

Just think rationally and look at the engine supplier landscape that year and most would probably have reached the same conclusion as Ron did.

Ron could not afford to stick with Peugeot because he was desperate for wins and the Peugeot engine seemed unable to deliver. Of course, the McLaren cars were also to blame. Mercedes was definitely the preferred engine supplier given it's resources, prestige, and will to win.

Actually, were I Ron, I would have entered into the deal with Lamborghini for their V12 engines.

Why?

Either way he was going to be rolling the dice with a new engine supplier for 1994. But going with Lamborghini likely would have allowed him to retain Ayrton Senna. That would have been the difference maker...besides, they would have had plenty of time to work on the engine to get it up to reliability.

I've got a question regarding that last line though where you mention how Mercedes had prestige and the will to win.

Merc hadn't exactly done a great deal in the previous 40 years in F1 after that whole incident at Le Mans '55 when the 300 SLR went flying off into the crowd. So how could one say they had the prestige, when quite clearly, the only momentous thing they did since the days of Fangio was throwing down $150K to get the German in the Jordan 191?

On the will to win front, we've been learning the past 17 years that Merc's will to win consists of spending money to buy previously existing operations, and rebadging them with their logos. I don't really consider that a will to win personally. Does the will to win include not coming up with any updates for the W03 since Monaco?

[Pierce89]

Germans are actually able to learn English and to understand the rules It is rather a question if English people are able to learn German.

During my short time in Germany, most of the people I met spoke better English than me.

[SeijaKessen]

Your idea of Mercedes moving all it's F1 operations back to Germany is a fanciful one that has been dismissed time and time again. It's a romantic notion, but that's it.

In the list of adjectives used to describe German industry, 'romantic' is an unexpected find.

I was merely trying to describe Seijakessen's idea of a true Mercedes GP team should be based in Germany run by Germans.

Well that's part of it, minus the run by Germans part.

Let me just quickly expound upon this "true MGP" team.

I feel that the one true MGP would be based out of Germany, and would involve having the car and engines built from scratch in Stuttgart, or somewhere near HQ. The one true MGP would not be rebadging Ilmor engines as their own, nor would it be painting the Brawn GP car in silver. Were I one of Dr. Z's VIP's at Hockenheim, I probably would have asked Dr. Z how this qualifies as a true Merc car. This is not a mass-produced vehicle, where it is understandable that they may be made in other locations outside of Germany.

[wunderkind]

Firstly, the pool of top notch F1 design and engineering expertise and experience in Germany is small. That means Mercedes will have to either start from scratch or hiring expats from all over Europe to live and work in Germany at great expense. Also, taxes are lower in the UK. The German language is also an issue. Like it or not, being in Germany means german will be the default language. But the F1 rules are written in English and having designers and engineers with English as their first language is an advantage.

Secondly, there is a small but very competent band of external parts and technology suppliers in the UK that do not exist in Germany. That means Mercedes will have to do even more things in-house to replicate the services provided by these external suppliers.

Thirdly, it is only economical to make things in Germany if you are taking about huge volumes. For anything bespoke or low volume, the UK is the place to do it.

Hahahaha that is all just so wrong.

If you want to do something in high volume you better go to China. Everybody knows that.
Apart from that is engineering regarded so much higher in Germany than it is in the UK. Germany is actually great in low volume, specialised machinery, high class engineering and development. It is rather funny that UK still tries to do research and development with all their health and safety restrictions.
F1 teams are only located in the UK because their history originates there, meaning they were founded there. I guess motorsport is just of less interest for Germans which might be because it is hard to make money with it. However Sauber for example shows that it is possible to run a F1 team outside of UK. And btw. Germans are actually able to learn English and to understand the rules It is rather a question if English people are able to learn German.

Wow, are we talking about high tech manufacturing or making t-shirts and running shoes?

Sauber, I'm a Sauber fan. But Sauber is hardly what you would call THE example of a successful F1 team. Running a F1 team in Switzerland is a challenge because of union problems and tight employment legislations. Higher Staff compensation, overtime wages, and holiday benefits means Sauber cannot work their staff as hard and they have to be even more efficient than their UK counterparts.

Yes, the Germans make great specialist measurement machineries and dyno's. but most parts are made by Japanese CNC machines.

I dont doubt the linguistic abilities of the Germans. But english as a second language is a hindrance more often than not. The biggest problem is when systems and protocols are worded in a German and non-German employees have to adapt.

I don't at all think the UK is behind in high tech manufacturing. The UK is a leader in the manufacturing of many aerospace, aviation, and motorsport components.

Just to give you an example, the reason Mercedes talked to Aston Martin about making the now defunct maybach was purely based on lower cost. The UK can produce small volume, bespoke, and high quality items better than the germans can.

[Pup]

"Dix points" Pup!

Danke. If you're looking for an anniversary getaway for the misses, I can't recommend the Ruhr strongly enough.

[wunderkind]

Why I guess that Ron the Con just went along with Peugeot and Chrysler because he was both gulleable and good-hearted?

Just think rationally and look at the engine supplier landscape that year and most would probably have reached the same conclusion as Ron did.

Ron could not afford to stick with Peugeot because he was desperate for wins and the Peugeot engine seemed unable to deliver. Of course, the McLaren cars were also to blame. Mercedes was definitely the preferred engine supplier given it's resources, prestige, and will to win.

Actually, were I Ron, I would have entered into the deal with Lamborghini for their V12 engines.

Why?

Either way he was going to be rolling the dice with a new engine supplier for 1994. But going with Lamborghini likely would have allowed him to retain Ayrton Senna. That would have been the difference maker...besides, they would have had plenty of time to work on the engine to get it up to reliability.

I've got a question regarding that last line though where you mention how Mercedes had prestige and the will to win.

Merc hadn't exactly done a great deal in the previous 40 years in F1 after that whole incident at Le Mans '55 when the 300 SLR went flying off into the crowd. So how could one say they had the prestige, when quite clearly, the only momentous thing they did since the days of Fangio was throwing down $150K to get the German in the Jordan 191?

On the will to win front, we've been learning the past 17 years that Merc's will to win consists of spending money to buy previously existing operations, and rebadging them with their logos. I don't really consider that a will to win personally. Does the will to win include not coming up with any updates for the W03 since Monaco?

Lamborghini had NO money to develop what was a heavy and unreliable engine at that time. That was the fact Ron was facing. Senna had a foot out the door anyway. The Williams-Renault combo was just superior.

[wunderkind]

Seijakessen,

If you think Mercedes is no more prestigious than Peugeot, then I have nothing to say. I will not attempt to try to convince you.

Lamborghini was just not a viable option. End of story.

[SeijaKessen]

Just think rationally and look at the engine supplier landscape that year and most would probably have reached the same conclusion as Ron did.

Ron could not afford to stick with Peugeot because he was desperate for wins and the Peugeot engine seemed unable to deliver. Of course, the McLaren cars were also to blame. Mercedes was definitely the preferred engine supplier given it's resources, prestige, and will to win.

Actually, were I Ron, I would have entered into the deal with Lamborghini for their V12 engines.

Why?

Either way he was going to be rolling the dice with a new engine supplier for 1994. But going with Lamborghini likely would have allowed him to retain Ayrton Senna. That would have been the difference maker...besides, they would have had plenty of time to work on the engine to get it up to reliability.

I've got a question regarding that last line though where you mention how Mercedes had prestige and the will to win.

Merc hadn't exactly done a great deal in the previous 40 years in F1 after that whole incident at Le Mans '55 when the 300 SLR went flying off into the crowd. So how could one say they had the prestige, when quite clearly, the only momentous thing they did since the days of Fangio was throwing down $150K to get the German in the Jordan 191?

On the will to win front, we've been learning the past 17 years that Merc's will to win consists of spending money to buy previously existing operations, and rebadging them with their logos. I don't really consider that a will to win personally. Does the will to win include not coming up with any updates for the W03 since Monaco?

Lamborghini had NO money to develop what was a heavy and unreliable engine at that time. That was the fact Ron was facing. Senna had a foot out the door anyway. The Williams-Renault combo was just superior.

Ah but don't you know, based on the deal Ron the Con agreed to in Frankfurt with a handshake, Lamborghini set about revising the engine to meet the specs that Ayrton Senna wanted?

[SeijaKessen]

Seijakessen,

If you think Mercedes is no more prestigious than Peugeot, then I have nothing to say. I will not attempt to try to convince you.

Lamborghini was just not a viable option. End of story.

In 1994/1995, Merc as it pertains to F1 was no more prestigious than Peugeot.

Why?

They hadn't competed in any shape or form in F1 since 1955.

Not competing for 40 years hardly lends any measure of prestige...other than to perhaps those who haven't noticed time has since passed on by.