[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[holeindalip]

This is nice to read. Which doesn't say they are cheating.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29310&p=918599#p918599

I can agree with that, this new rule is going to kill the races though, going to be a lot more fuel saving and no overtake button so there will be way less passing.

I still Mercedes had the target to Ferrari from 2019 and fixed the cooling issues+ upgrades, there’s been no proof that Mercedes were ever in the oil burning conversation, Ferrari were the ones with a whole secondary oil tank... and it’s hard to say with Red Bull, if/when they get the chassis sorted if it’s all motor or chassis they are lacking, Hungary is way less power sensitive than most tracks and th mercs were still ahead by a margin. Do you think if they didn’t have their (party mode) they wouldn’t have been on pole by a big margin?

do you have proof Mercedes are not doing anything illegal?
You say that they aimed Ferrari's performance last year and of course they achieved it, right? They are so succesful that they achieve everything, they just need to aim it for success.
What do you think about that Mercedes were aiming a power which comes from illegality, burning more fuel tham allowed. But you say that merc achieved it in the legal way? How Mercedes is doing it?
In fact they had a rear suspension they need to rebuilt because of illegality. it was visible something. But das is not all visible and pu is completely closed. First thing shows what they are and make us very suspicious about hiden parts.
In the other hand Fia's approach to Ferrari thing is very encouraging who want to do their own version.

Do you have proof they are cheating?

Mercedes has been class of the field for awhile no sudden jump in performance. This year the gap to the midfield has stayed the same, Red Bull and Ferrari are the ones that are off the pace. Since Mercedes has a bigger gap to Red Bull down to the chassis/td’s it doesn’t matter they gained around the same amount as they did the year before and now they are cheaters.... makes sense....

[1158]

But that is where you can use the oil for, I think I have written that a few posts ago? If you somehow put some anti knock additives in the oil you can use that to up the turbo compression on your engine and still don’t get too much knock (indeed killing its live) during the time you burn the extra oil off. Mercedes must be doing something differently then f.e. Honda as they gain so much more time in Q3. If you can prevent knock better over a short time that would be an ideal way to allow for such a jump in power. Something is up, why else is FIA now coming with this rule. If it comes. Why now? High power mode has been there since 2014.

I honestly don't think the FIA have a clear understanding of how Q mode works. I think Ferrari have taught them what is going on and they have reacted. I suspect Ferrari gave them a heads up over the winter, the FIA have been watching telemetry for a few races and have now decided to make a ruling.

That would also explain why Ferrari has no Q mode anymore. They knew this was coming.

[Moore77]

I think that is what the qualy mode ban is about, there is still a relatively high allowance but this was so called Needed as engines use that. Well, then don’t use the most of it in qualy. Now they can’t anymore (if that rule really comes). As the mode used in qualy must be run the whole race. Then your oil would run out in lap 6 or so.

Come on Sieper, I thought you were better than this.

The qually modes all the teams are using are about maximum energy deployment (running the ES down to almost zero), running as lean as they can to extend maximum rpm, most aggressive timing then can get away with, etc etc. They are basically running the PU in a way that they know is detrimental to its longevity, but yields increased performance for short periods of time.

But that is where you can use the oil for, I think I have written that a few posts ago? If you somehow put some anti knock additives in the oil you can use that to up the turbo compression on your engine and still don’t get too much knock (indeed killing its live) during the time you burn the extra oil off. Mercedes must be doing something differently then f.e. Honda as they gain so much more time in Q3. If you can prevent knock better over a short time that would be an ideal way to allow for such a jump in power. Something is up, why else is FIA now coming with this rule. If it comes. Why now? High power mode has been there since 2014.

Assuming that, your statement also applies to Honda. Because they themselves have said that, they made considerable jump and they have seen the gains on track. They do have a quali mode, albeit not as powerful as Mercedes one. May be they aren't burning as much. Similarly, Renault also have pumped up their quali mode. I also assume, FIA has looked at all the PUs and decided that, everyone is guilty. So let's stop everyone.

[holeindalip]

But that is where you can use the oil for, I think I have written that a few posts ago? If you somehow put some anti knock additives in the oil you can use that to up the turbo compression on your engine and still don’t get too much knock (indeed killing its live) during the time you burn the extra oil off. Mercedes must be doing something differently then f.e. Honda as they gain so much more time in Q3. If you can prevent knock better over a short time that would be an ideal way to allow for such a jump in power. Something is up, why else is FIA now coming with this rule. If it comes. Why now? High power mode has been there since 2014.

I honestly don't think the FIA have a clear understanding of how Q mode works. I think Ferrari have taught them what is going on and they have reacted. I suspect Ferrari gave them a heads up over the winter, the FIA have been watching telemetry for a few races and have now decided to make a ruling.

That would also explain why Ferrari has no Q mode anymore. They knew this was coming.

If this is true, this is straight bs, this whole secret agreement thing is unprecedented.

Edit: there have been qualy modes on engines since the ‘80s a d maybe before...

[etusch]

Come on Sieper, I thought you were better than this.

The qually modes all the teams are using are about maximum energy deployment (running the ES down to almost zero), running as lean as they can to extend maximum rpm, most aggressive timing then can get away with, etc etc. They are basically running the PU in a way that they know is detrimental to its longevity, but yields increased performance for short periods of time.

But that is where you can use the oil for, I think I have written that a few posts ago? If you somehow put some anti knock additives in the oil you can use that to up the turbo compression on your engine and still don’t get too much knock (indeed killing its live) during the time you burn the extra oil off. Mercedes must be doing something differently then f.e. Honda as they gain so much more time in Q3. If you can prevent knock better over a short time that would be an ideal way to allow for such a jump in power. Something is up, why else is FIA now coming with this rule. If it comes. Why now? High power mode has been there since 2014.

Assuming that, your statement also applies to Honda. Because they themselves have said that, they made considerable jump and they have seen the gains on track. They do have a quali mode, albeit not as powerful as Mercedes one. May be they aren't burning as much. Similarly, Renault also have pumped up their quali mode. I also assume, FIA has looked at all the PUs and decided that, everyone is guilty. So let's stop everyone.

come on man, if renault and honda also do that why they do it with less performance ?
Of course I want to see everyone stays in rules.

[Moore77]

But that is where you can use the oil for, I think I have written that a few posts ago? If you somehow put some anti knock additives in the oil you can use that to up the turbo compression on your engine and still don’t get too much knock (indeed killing its live) during the time you burn the extra oil off. Mercedes must be doing something differently then f.e. Honda as they gain so much more time in Q3. If you can prevent knock better over a short time that would be an ideal way to allow for such a jump in power. Something is up, why else is FIA now coming with this rule. If it comes. Why now? High power mode has been there since 2014.

Assuming that, your statement also applies to Honda. Because they themselves have said that, they made considerable jump and they have seen the gains on track. They do have a quali mode, albeit not as powerful as Mercedes one. May be they aren't burning as much. Similarly, Renault also have pumped up their quali mode. I also assume, FIA has looked at all the PUs and decided that, everyone is guilty. So let's stop everyone.

come on man, if renault and honda also do that why they do it with less performance ?
Of course I want to see everyone stays in rules.

May be they don't know all the tricks that Mercedes knows. We don't have to wait long. It's another 2 weeks and in Spa, we will get to know who was exploiting it more and who is getting hurt and whose PU has most legal power, as defined by FIA!

[dans79]

But that is where you can use the oil for, I think I have written that a few posts ago? If you somehow put some anti knock additives in the oil you can use that to up the turbo compression on your engine and still don’t get too much knock (indeed killing its live) during the time you burn the extra oil off. Mercedes must be doing something differently then f.e. Honda as they gain so much more time in Q3. If you can prevent knock better over a short time that would be an ideal way to allow for such a jump in power. Something is up, why else is FIA now coming with this rule. If it comes. Why now? High power mode has been there since 2014.

By the way, I do like to fantasize (if you will) about possibilities, for me that is part of the fun of the sport. I am NOT saying mercedes are a bunch of cheaters. It is just clear, since Ferrari did not get punished, it is very attractive for ALL teams to think outside of the rules.

The fia already has rules governing oil usage.
https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/5305 ... l-burning/

The directive, 0019/20, details regulations to ensure that the limit of 0.3 litres/100km of oil consumption is adhered to, and permits the FIA to take a physical measurement if required.

A team would have to be crazy to try and burn excessive amounts of oil. Honestly, I don't think the FIA cares or thinks teams are burning oil, as the 0.3 litres/100km rule has been in place for several years now. Not to mention it would be far easier to just tell manufactures the new limit is 0.1 liters/100km, or any other random limit.

IMO, this is a strong arm tactic to get Mercedes to sign the new Concorde Agreement, and to make the RP issue go away.

last weekend
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15117 ... leaning-up

"I think most of the teams, if not 90%, are of the opinion that it needs cleaning up, that there are clauses that are critical that need to be discussed around governance and certain commercial aspects," Wolff said on Sky Sports F1 on Friday.

today
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15136 ... -agreement

"So we have decided to move forward with Liberty. I've had some very constructive discussions with Chase over the last weekend, and most of the clarifications that we wanted to achieve have been discussed.

"I feel were are at a good point to sign the Concorde Agreement and move on."

Don't forget that Hemlut has been openly critical this season of Honda saying they have been to conservative.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/62691/ma ... alty-.html

"Mercedes has certainly taken a big step with the engine", Marko begins to tell in an interview with Auto, Motor und Sport. With the German medium he says he is impressed by the power unit of the Brackley based race team. "They have a lot of power in qualifying mode. Honda is still too conservative with the engine settings."

[1158]

If this is true, this is straight bs, this whole secret agreement thing is unprecedented.

Edit: there have been qualy modes on engines since the ‘80s a d maybe before...

Previous Q modes have never been as hard to police or as intricate as what is in place now. There also wasn't a fuel flow limit. I think this stupid reaction is because the FIA boxed themselves into a corner with no PU development this year and limited development next year. If the PUs hadn't been frozen, maybe this doesn't happen.

[dans79]

I think this stupid reaction is because the FIA boxed themselves into a corner with no PU development this year and limited development next year. If the PUs hadn't been frozen, maybe this doesn't happen.

I could see this being a strong possibility as well.

[Sieper]

Very good post Dans, I even think there is specific ruling against adding additives to the oils but I am not 100% sure. So the oil might indeed not be the golden bullet.

That 0,3 liter is per 100km. Race distance let Say 300km, so one liter. But the idea is then this is normal oil usage (being lost via the cilinder walls as it is pushed past the piston and ends up in the combustion chamber (unwanted, as a result to keep the side of the pistons oiled as to not seize them into the cilinderwall). So it must be used pro rato. After 100km 0,3 liter must be used. What is to stop them from using 0,8 liter in the qualy and 0,2 in the race (really actual oil usage is close to nill even if these are full blown race units, according to Renault).

You might be right that it is simply a powerplay. For sure FIA is unhappy with the RP situation, they have already stated ruling will be made more strict. Without qualy mode RP problem would be far less, the subtop teams would be back in the fight with them.

But have you looked at the multi year gap, somebody produced a nice graphic, RBR was moving closer and closer, and now, back to 1 second gap. I struggle to understand that. Perhaps FIA as well, and then this solution would prevent them needing to understand it fully.

Or they do know and choose this solution.

Whatever it is, something must be up. This year is unprecedented as it is anyway, but this rule change mid season is just very strange.

[1158]

Ok. I'm gonna go full tinfoil hat for a minute. Suppose the real reason Merc dropped their Ferrari-FIA secret agreement challenge was because Ferrari informed Merc they know how Merc's Q mode really works and that it is outside of the intentions of the regs. The FIA then agreed to not do anything about it until Merc had a large advantage which is why Merc has unleashed it's full potential for the first part of the season to keep Merc happy, in F1 and out of the Ferrari-FIA secret agreement.

Do I really think that happened? No. I'd say a less than 1% chance, but wouldn't that be a bombshell in 10 or 20 years lol.

[ispano6]

A team would have to be crazy to try and burn excessive amounts of oil. Honestly, I don't think the FIA cares or thinks teams are burning oil, as the 0.3 litres/100km rule has been in place for several years now. Not to mention it would be far easier to just tell manufactures the new limit is 0.1 liters/100km, or any other random limit.

Several years at 0.3?
It was reduced to 0.6 in 2019 and to 0.3 for 2020.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... 0/4358582/

"The FIA has confirmed plans for an even stricter clampdown on oil burn in 2020, as the governing body moves to stop teams benefiting from the activity.

Ever since the turbo hybrid engines came in with a strict fuel limit, some manufacturers have tried to find ways to boost power through burning oil rather than petrol.

The FIA quickly cottoned on to what the engine makers were up to, and have made several moves over the years to limit the activity.

Teams currently have to operate with a strict limit of oil consumption of 0.6 litres per 100km, while for 2019 further rules were introduced to prevent teams exploiting oil burn in qualifying.

The FIA's head of single-seater matters Nikolas Tombazis says the governing body is clear that any use by teams of oil burn as a way of boosting performance is not acceptable.

"The question of oil is simple," he told Motorsport.com. "The regulation states that the only fuel that can be burned is petrol, so the oil must be just a lubricant.

"We know that there is oil consumption, but in some cases that could contribute to the performance, which is not correct.

"We intervened and reduced consumption to 0.6 kg per 100 km, but in anticipation of next year we want to drop even further.
"

[Moore77]

A team would have to be crazy to try and burn excessive amounts of oil. Honestly, I don't think the FIA cares or thinks teams are burning oil, as the 0.3 litres/100km rule has been in place for several years now. Not to mention it would be far easier to just tell manufactures the new limit is 0.1 liters/100km, or any other random limit.

Several years at 0.3?
It was reduced to 0.6 in 2019 and to 0.3 for 2020.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... 0/4358582/

"The FIA has confirmed plans for an even stricter clampdown on oil burn in 2020, as the governing body moves to stop teams benefiting from the activity.

Ever since the turbo hybrid engines came in with a strict fuel limit, some manufacturers have tried to find ways to boost power through burning oil rather than petrol.

The FIA quickly cottoned on to what the engine makers were up to, and have made several moves over the years to limit the activity.

Teams currently have to operate with a strict limit of oil consumption of 0.6 litres per 100km, while for 2019 further rules were introduced to prevent teams exploiting oil burn in qualifying.

The FIA's head of single-seater matters Nikolas Tombazis says the governing body is clear that any use by teams of oil burn as a way of boosting performance is not acceptable.

"The question of oil is simple," he told Motorsport.com. "The regulation states that the only fuel that can be burned is petrol, so the oil must be just a lubricant.

"We know that there is oil consumption, but in some cases that could contribute to the performance, which is not correct.

"We intervened and reduced consumption to 0.6 kg per 100 km, but in anticipation of next year we want to drop even further.
"

Unlimited oil from 2014 to 2016, to 1.2 litre/100kms in 2017 to 0.9 litre/100kms to 0.6 litre/100kms to 0.3 litre/100kms, it doesn't seem to have slowed down Mercedes quali mode. In 2016 when Horner accused Mercedes of oil burning, Toto said, he is open to setting 5kg oil limit for 2017, which was argued hard and FIA drastically reduced it to 1.2 litre/100 kms and then finally to 0.3 litre/100kms for 2020.

I assume 0.3 litre/100 kms dispension is prorated per kilometer, which is how it would be calculated in qualifying OR is it 0.3 litre UPTO 100kms? Someone need to confirm this. I am sure FIA is monitoring the oil burned with some form of sensor, just like fuel burned, along with the total oil used (to be reported by teams) for lubrication purpose. I am not too much aware of this.

Case 1: Assuming it is prorated, on an average, top 3 cars go about 30kms in qualifying (Q1 - 1 lap; Q2 - 2 laps; Q3 - 2 laps). So, in that case, a car would get 0.1 litre for the whole of qualifying (1/3rd for 30 kms). Assuming, top cars save the entire 0.1 litre oil for Q3, where typically they run their quali mode for 2 laps, it is then 0.05 litre (50ml) oil available per hot lap.

Case 2: Assuming it is 0.3 litre UPTO 100kms. In this case, cars save 0.3 litre oil for 2 laps in Q3, meaning for each lap, they get 0.15 litre (150ml) oil per hot lap.

Based on this quote from the report, I would take Case 1 as the only possibility.

"When it comes down to such low consumption, it becomes clear that there will be no need to have an auxiliary tank in qualifying. So this is the novelty of 2019."

Teams have been informed that the FIA will base the oil consumption figure on any given distance taken as a multiple of a lap – to ensure they are not burning more during specific phases of the event.

If you read that statement in more stricter sense, then it leads to an assumption that, the oil to be used is prorated to a lap level. 0.3 litre/100kms means, 0.003 litre (3ml) per kms. So, a 5.5 kms lap can have 0.0165 (16.5ml) and this cannot be accumulated from Q1 to Q3 (not more more during specific phases of the event).

A hot lap on an average 5.5 kms circuit requires about 2.5kg of fuel (around 2.75 to 3 litres, depending upon how light or viscous the fuel is. If it is supremely light, it might even be 3.5 litres per kg) and we are talking about an additional 16.5ml of oil burning per lap, along with 3 or 3.5 litres of fuel needed. Is that a lot? Is that a lot compared to 2016 where there was no limit and no monitoring?

Please don't tell me, Mercedes has not stopped oil burning, despite all these sensors, and they continue to burn as much as they did in 2016! Ferrari wouldn't have got caught if that was the case. Let's assume, they are breaching the limits that I explained above (more than 16.5ml per lap), but by how much? Let's assume, Honda and Renault are at this exact limit and fully conforming (which I genuinely doubt). Based on current Mercedes performance, they seem to have 25 to 30 BHP more in Q3 mode than those two. How much more oil must they be burning to generate that 25 to 30 BHP?

If you agree they are not burning as much as they did back then due to new regulations, how do you doubt the overall gains that they have year on year, as NOT genuine and legal?

Someone should let me know if I am smoking something!

[Brake Horse Power]

Albon said the balance of the car was good yesterday. Did they solve the issue??

[Revs84]

Even Verstappen said that the car felt good and that it was great to drive around the track.

In fact, even though on a one lap pace they're still nowhere, on long run pace they are very competitive. I think they're the closest they have been this year. It's not clear how much of this is down to chassis improvements or track conditions though.

As always we don't know fuel loads and engine modes but interestingly, on the medium compound Red Bull were slightly faster than Mercedes. On the softs, slightly slower. Degradation levels are not yet clear - interesting to see if anyone will be pushed for a second stop.

Seeing that there's a delta of 0.7s between softs and medium, I'm curious to see on which tyre Red Bull will seek to qualify in Q2 seeing that the teams behind are very close on a one lap pace.