2016 Red Bull Racing team - TAG Heuer

[FoxHound]

when they had off throttle engine running to energize the diffuser they defended their advantage to death.

An advantage fia wanted to ban mid-season and only lasted in true form for 1 year.

EBD/Coanda Lasted more than a year. From 2010 through to 2013 or 4 seasons.

More than anything, the advantage lay in Renault using less fuel than the other engines and therefore less mass at the start of GP's. 15% more are figures not unheard of.

[Juzh]

You're spinning this out of context. He said OFF throttle engine running (I assume he meant off throttle exhaust blown diffuser), which existed only 1 season and even got banned at one point mid season, before being reinstated. The FIA went to enormous lengths to get it outlawed and any further iterations weren't nearly as effective.

As for renault being fuel efficient, this is entirely different story.

[Pierce89]

You're spinning this out of context. He said OFF throttle engine running (I assume he meant off throttle exhaust blown diffuser), which existed only 1 season and even got banned at one point mid season, before being reinstated. The FIA went to enormous lengths to get it outlawed and any further iterations weren't nearly as effective.

As for renault being fuel efficient, this is entirely different story.

Actually off throttle blowing wasn't completely outlawed, as all the engines did so for cooling before 2010. They were allowed to keep the level they could prove they ran between 2006-9.

[Phil]

The only issue I see in this (endless) discussion is that the FIA had a lot more possibilities in how to counter any advantage a team had back during this aero dominated era. RedBull flex-wing? Load tests were increased to simulate higher forces. EBD? New rules were thought up, like the defining the exhaust pipe and how it is placed to counter that. I didn't like RedBull walking away with as many titles as it did as much I can, but it's indisputable that they [and Renault] did a better job at exploiting the rules at the given time. Not to mention that the margins were a lot closer so it wasn't exactly a run away, certainly not to the extend the last two seasons were.

Right now, it's a lot harder to come up with rules that hurt the current dominant team and allow others to catch up on the premise of equality. This is a problem IMO. The 'regulator' no longer is in direct control, hence why it is desperately coming up with rules like the new qualifying mechanism to throw the established "order" into chaos.

Actually, this is in the wrong topic. This should be in direct reply to bhall's post... ->

I think I've finally figured out how the regulations are devised.

Ideas for rules are written down on small notecards. The cards are then pinned to the walls of a small room. An autistic chimpanzee with stomach flu is led into that room and encouraged to randomly fling poo against the walls. The shittiest ideas are the ones that get codified to govern the sport.

In a series where the whole idea behind development is to make the cars faster and easier to drive, radio restrictions are senseless.

Apologies for cross referencing 3 different topics here (new qualifying mechanism / new radio rules / new engine formula topic and this one). As mad as it is, it's all connected. (Where's the grab by coat emoji?)

[Juzh]

You're spinning this out of context. He said OFF throttle engine running (I assume he meant off throttle exhaust blown diffuser), which existed only 1 season and even got banned at one point mid season, before being reinstated. The FIA went to enormous lengths to get it outlawed and any further iterations weren't nearly as effective.

As for renault being fuel efficient, this is entirely different story.

Actually off throttle blowing wasn't completely outlawed, as all the engines did so for cooling before 2010. They were allowed to keep the level they could prove they ran between 2006-9.

OT blowing pre-2011 was small stuff. I seem to remember there was a big fuss of how much should any given engine be allowed to continue OT blowing during the silverstone 2011 grand prix (which got reverted), but got completely scrapped after 2011. Can you find some news about how much blowing was still allowed after 2011?

[ME4ME]

Right now, it's a lot harder to come up with rules that hurt the current dominant team and allow others to catch up on the premise of equality. This is a problem IMO. The 'regulator' no longer is in direct control, hence why it is desperately coming up with rules like the new qualifying mechanism to throw the established "order" into chaos.

In a way these knee jerk FIA reactions to dominant teams always seem ineffective to me. Dominant teams are just that, because they have a great team of experienced, knowedgable people at that moment in time. They aren't going to be out done by any minor regulations change, being it aero, PU or both. In Mercedes case they are best or equal best at both categories. Nothing is going to happen anytime soon, whatever the FIA does. I expect not even the supposed 2017 aero regulations are going to affect them negativly and take away their relative performance.

What the FIA needs to do instead is have a bit more foresight and implement messures against total domination before introducing new regulations. But there are only a few people experienced enough to do that it seems. They need to get such people involved.

I think internally Red Bull know they have to be patient, and that only time will help them retaking their previous position at the top. All they can do is put pressure on Renault to develop quickly, and play the political game to possibly disadvantage their opponents.

[bhall II]

The only issue I see in this (endless) discussion is that the FIA had a lot more possibilities in how to counter any advantage a team had back during this aero dominated era. RedBull flex-wing? Load tests were increased to simulate higher forces. EBD? New rules were thought up, like the defining the exhaust pipe and how it is placed to counter that. I didn't like RedBull walking away with as many titles as it did as much I can, but it's indisputable that they [and Renault] did a better job at exploiting the rules at the given time. Not to mention that the margins were a lot closer so it wasn't exactly a run away, certainly not to the extend the last two seasons were.

The dominant team wasn't singled out; the FIA has always clamped down on what it considers rogue aerodynamics. For example:

• Ferrari's 2006 car, 248 F1, employed a flexible rear wing flap that caused the FIA to require slot-gap separators.
• Also that year, Renault's tuned mass damper was banned as movable aero.
• FRIC was banned as movable aero.
• F2007 had a flexible tea-tray that led to revised floor testing procedures.
• The first generation of exhaust-blown diffusers prompted the FIA to ban the holes in the floor that allowed exhaust gases to be blown directly into them.

In other words, it shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone that the preferred design path chosen by a team that lives and dies on the periphery of the rules was bound to have a limited shelf life. History made that very clear.

I completely agree with you that the engine/chassis performance mix is all sorts of screwed up these days. But, the factors that led to it aren't without precedent.

[turbof1]

The dominant team wasn't singled out; the FIA has always clamped down on what it considers rogue aerodynamics.

Yes and no. History tells that clamping down on rogue aerodynamics more often then not hurts the dominant team which got to exploit it first or the best.

That's not to say there are no clamp downs which have not hurt the dominant team. They are numerous as well.

The rules are screwed up anyhow. The biggest advancements made in F1 in the field of aerodynamics in the last few years have been made possible through advancements in the PU, gearbox or cooling by shrinking them, which reduces the footprint on the aerodynamics. That tells you there is a big imbalance, because not advancing well enough with PU will leave you with an aerodynamic disadvantage as well.

[gandharva]

Interview with Helmut Marko (KleineZeitung):

- RB12 has excellent chassis
- Renault PU much better reliability and better driveability
- Renault PU will have more power starting at Montreal and more to come later the season
- Marko hints that engine equality (inbetween 2%) of F1 engines is to be enforced (no details on this subject)
- For Melbourne he hopes to cross the finishing line behind the Ferraris and maybe fight with one of them

http://www.kleinezeitung.at/s/sport/mot ... ht-dort-wo

So not much news here. Looks like Renault gained no or nearly no power over winter until now. It all (half a second?) seems to come from better driveability.

[ME4ME]

Interesting. Finishing behind Ferrari is quite ambitious to say the least. But he can always hope. Red Bull have already said they aim for 3rd in the WCC this year. But they've also said that Toro Rosso might be quicker early in the season, so for Marco to say that he hopes to beat both TR and Williams.. that indicates some optimism.

[bhall II]

Yes and no. History tells that clamping down on rogue aerodynamics more often then not hurts the dominant team which got to exploit it first or the best.

Absolutely, it tends to work out that way. But, the thought process isn't, "this team is winning, so we're going to take away its toys." It's more like, "we don't like these toys, so we're going to take them away from everyone."

In terms of who reportedly got the most from the concept: Mercedes lost FRIC when it wasn't a dominant team. Ferrari lost flexible flaps - not to mention its fuel flow workaround last year - when it wasn't a dominant team. Lotus lost reactive ride height when it wasn't even a threat.

That's just how it works, and if you build a strategy around such ideas, you have to know the party isn't gonna last very long.

[Sevach]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/aston ... 79933/?s=1

Surprising honestly.

[djos]

Not that surprising, good news tho!

[hemichromis]

Would that mean a Mercedes engine somewhere along the line? Or an Aston-branded Mercedes engine?

[Chuckjr]

Or maybe Aston partners with Red Bull to build a Red Bull/Aston engine?