2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[dumrick]

Ferrari could return to Le Mans top categories:

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... hreat.html

Now, this is exciting, the prospect of Ferrari returning to real racing!

[u401768]

Now if they did - could we see a dream team of Michael Schumacher, Kimi Räikkönen and Felipe Massa and then have Renault with Alonso, etc - now that could be fun....

[gridwalker]

this throws an interesting spin on court case - its the article called "Did the FIA really win the court case?"

url:- http://joesaward.wordpress.com/

We know Ferrari is talking about other legal action too…

That makes sense : the EU ruling is common knowledge (we've seen people referring to it on these forums) and the EU aren't afraid of big antitrust cases with the likes of Microsoft, so the FIA are small fry in comparison.

If nothing else, Ferrari are canny operators and I doubt that they'd have gone to court if they saw it as their last stand. If they are going to leave, they'll want to do so in a blaze of publicity & the media response to the court ruling was suspiciously muted.

We've seen far from the last of this.

[Richard]

What strikes me is the silence of Mercedes on the matter.

Google will translate from German
http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 51908.html

Thanks.

That's hardly a statement of intent either way. It says we support FOTA (who advocate leaving) whilst we believe we should stay with FIA. Foot in both camps, don't upset anyone.

To be honest, I think McL have scandal fatigue, and are happy others are in the spotlight for a change. In their heart, they'll fall in line with FOTA.

[timbo]

If Ferrari, Toyota and Renault leaves, Mercedes may become engine supplier for almost a whole grid, except BMW. Good reason for their position if customer engines yield any profit.

[DaveKillens]

Secret deals, money under the table, questionable ethics, all are trademarks of Max and Bernie. And don't think for a second that it isn't going on this very moment. But by Ferrari dragging the FIA into a European court, they are inviting the one thing Bernie and Max do not want, definitely. And that is scrutiny by the European Union. Because their business methods and ethics do not fall within the boundaries expected by the EU. I expect Ferrari to initiate more legal action. Not to win anything, but to attract the EU. The more court cases that Ferrari can drag into a European court, the more the FIA's business moves closer to the EU.

[Richard]

Ferrari could return to Le Mans top categories:

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news ... hreat.html

Now, this is exciting, the prospect of Ferrari returning to real racing!

I'd miss the spectacle of the open wheel format.

[WhiteBlue]

this throws an interesting spin on court case - its the article called "Did the FIA really win the court case?"

url:- http://joesaward.wordpress.com/

We know Ferrari is talking about other legal action too…

Interesting article but certainly not worth much. Those people who now criticise the FIA have mostly sided with the oligopolic Concord Agreement where nothing ever was transparent. Technical and sporting rules were privatly sorted out between those teams with influence, FIA and FOM. No other stake holders in F1 like new entrants or the spectators ever got any information or chance in that system.

It was the FIA that broke the cartel by introducing majority voting and got things moving in a different style in the last years. It would certainly not have come from the fat cats of the teams in the Concord.

So breaking up the Concord by temporarily leaving Concord style rights to Ferrari was probably not such a bad idea. After all 99% of the former veto crap and intransparencies were eliminated and it appears the last bastion of the veto is now going down the crapper.

I let Frank Williams speak on the issue of the special veto:

FW: Well, Ferrari now don’t really need this help. They’re a very, very strong and wealthy team. It will be a great shame if they do go but if they go, I hope that it won’t be in a fit of pique. They’ve had many years under this Concorde Agreement and the previous one in a very privileged position, which if it had been known previously would not have gone down very well, I think, with the competition authorities in Brussels, so it would be better for them to put their cap on and come back inside.

He said this today at the press conference.

To me it appears as if Ferrari will not get a whole lot of support with their threat to walk away. According to Mario Theissen who was doing a great job in the previous crisis with the GPMA all teams accept that a form of resource or budget cap needs to be found. He thinks it is acceptable to the big manufacturers, its policeable and Norbert Haug agrees with that. So as allways with money it is down to the question of how much.

I do not see a will to run an own series in the words of the two automotive men from Germany. So if Ferrari and Mateschitz continue to work in that direction they may find that they are pusuing a minority position.

The German quotes of Norbert Haug say exactly the same. They dismiss a manufacturer series as unrealistic and not appropriate. They say that compromise should be reached and that teams with 800-1000 personal resources need time to comply with the budget.

So in my view they will give special dispense to the very big teams to take a little big longer to cut the budget but not excessively and certainly not in a way as Ferrari would want that. Perhaps they will get one more year to comply with a very tough half way house.

[gcdugas]

It was the FIA that broke the cartel by introducing majority voting and got things moving in a different style in the last years. It would certainly not have come from the fat cats of the teams in the Concord.

Well we have all seen how much stock the FIA puts in "majority voting" haven't we?

Honestly, do you ever read anything you write? The whole mess we are in is exactly because the FIA wants nothing to do with "majority voting". All 10 teams assembled as the FOTA and put forth their budget ideas and.... dismissed by the FIA as was their scoring system as was all their other suggestions that ALL 10 teams (I think that is a majority BTW) agreed upon.

The FIA cares nothing for what the teams want and increasingly they don't care what Bernie or the CVC wants. Max is completely run amok and no amount of reality seems able to restrain his maddness.

[xpensive]

Honestly, do you ever read anything you write?

No comment to that. Not in a million years.

[WhiteBlue]

It was the FIA that broke the cartel by introducing majority voting and got things moving in a different style in the last years. It would certainly not have come from the fat cats of the teams in the Concord.

Well we have all seen how much stock the FIA puts in "majority voting" haven't we?

Honestly, do you ever read anything you write? The whole mess we are in is exactly because the FIA wants nothing to do with "majority voting". All 10 teams assembled as the FOTA and put forth their budget ideas and.... dismissed by the FIA as was their scoring system as was all their other suggestions that ALL 10 teams (I think that is a majority BTW) agreed upon.

The FIA cares nothing for what the teams want and increasingly they don't care what Bernie or the CVC wants. Max is completely run amok and no amount of reality seems able to restrain his maddness.

Well this is your opinion and big surprise!!! I don't care much about it. FOTA had every opportunity to comply with the framework requested by the FIA. Without FIA initiatives nothing would ever get moving in F1. FOTA only gets into action when they are back to the wall.

In the issue of opening up F1 to new teams neither FOTA nor FOM would ever had the idea to do anything without brute force. So it takes force, so what?

The rich teams will only yield to force, so they are asked more than they can do and settle on the possible. F1 moves on from there as it did in 2005/6. Memory must be short if you forgot that. All the talk of a break away series has happned before and came to nothing. In 2005 every team had a veto. Now only Ferrari have a veto. And next year no team has a veto. I guess we will see better racing with fewer vetos, at least this has been the trend so far.

If you have Merc, BMW and perhaps Toyota compete with Williams for historical flavour how long do you think that Red Bull and Ferrari will stay away. Renault will quickly make a U-turn when they realize they can't afford anything else but a budget capped F1.

This whole thing could be over by the Turkey GP. And if things go right we could have Aston Martin, Audi and Porsche on board in some years when racing makes them money instead of loosing money.

[andartop]

I do not see a will to run an own series in the words of the two automotive men from Germany. So if Ferrari and Mateschitz continue to work in that direction they may find that they are pusuing a minority position.

The German quotes of Norbert Haug say exactly the same. They dismiss a manufacturer series as unrealistic and not appropriate. They say that compromise should be reached and that teams with 800-1000 personal resources need time to comply with the budget.

Well, basically that's what EVERYBODY says they want anyway, isn't it?

[chrys]

Ferrari face legal action if they quit F1
Ferrari may be open to legal action from Bernie Ecclestone, the sport's commercial rights holder, if they quit Formula One
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... it-F1.html

[u401768]

So if Ferrari are bound legal by the concord agreement, how can the FIA not be?

To me it strikes as Ferrari can walk for free (the concord agreement was a shame contract) OR the FIA have breached the contract, and CAN NOT change the rules? So why isn’t Bernie going for them as well?

And which is right?

[gcdugas]

Well this is your opinion and big surprise!!! I don't care much about it. FOTA had every opportunity to comply with the framework requested by the FIA. Without FIA initiatives nothing would ever get moving in F1. FOTA only gets into action when they are back to the wall.

In the issue of opening up F1 to new teams neither FOTA nor FOM would ever had the idea to do anything without brute force. So it takes force, so what?

Yeah, just a "little brute force, so what?" Well now I see what you mean by "majority voting". Adolph, er Max says: "comply or else" to my "voluntary budget cap". Even Tony Soprano is more diplomatic than that. And we can all just ignore the budget ideas that all ten teams agreed with in their FOTA proposals because only "FIA initiatives get things moving in F1." After all, what is a little "brute force" among good friends anyway?

My memory must indeed be short because the last time we had talk about a breakaway series Ferrari broke rank from the GPMA and sided with the FIA. Now they take them to court. No difference this time. Everything is fine, move along now, nothing to notice here. Even Bernie concedes they may leave now but Max has a plethora of new teams wanting to enter F2, I mean F1 including the formidable "Essex Consortium".

BTW, since my memory is so short, could you tell me what the FIA's previous policy was towards new team entering F1? I seem to recall something about a $48M bond being required by the FIA but my "memory if short" so I could be wrong. Please fill me in and refresh my memory as to the FIA's previous "barrier free" welcoming posture towards new entrants.

Dream on about Aston Martin, Audi, Porsche or anyone notable wanting to race in F2, I mean F1.

Observant souls may have noticed a new term that has emerged in the negotiations... "glide path". This can only mean that the FIA is moving away from its 40M euro figure and plan to introduce a stepped reduction leading to that figure in a year or two. I don't know... I think the teams are fed up with Max's "initiatives" and have little interest in a "watered down" 40M eruo low tech series of spec racers even if it comes in 2012 or later. Ferrari certainly don't. Audi has spent well more than that on its diesel endurance racers, as has Peugeot.

If Max is hell bent on watering down F1, then there will be a shift to LMP as the "new pinnacle of motorsports" and he will forever be known as the man who destroyed F1. It wasn't all that long ago that LMP had more cache than F1 anyway. I would say that F1 had less cache than LMP up until Renault introduced the turbo era. Coincidentally the rich playboy Cosworth kit car "garagista" era ended and the manufacturer era ensued until the present time. Nothing says that this process couldn't reverse itself again if Max drives out the manufacturers with his vision of a low tech el-cheapo spec racer series. LeMans still has plenty of cache and would provide a tempting marketing alternative for manufacturers with well staffed racing departments and huge capital investments in wind tunnels etc. Remember, under Max's great leadership, WRC which was an ascendant series just a few years ago, has seen a great exodus of major players. It is now a series in decline.