Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

[wuzak]

Oh c'mon, RedBull have every right to complain as Renault have clearly screwed up big time.

Maybe if RBR thanked them for the 4 titles Renault helped win?

The only time RedBull complained about the V8 was when Renault stuck to the spirit of the development freeze agreement and ended up down on power compared to Ferrari and Mercedes. They weren't attacking Renault, they were lobbying the FiA to allow Renault to catch up.

Both Seb and Mark praised the Renault V8 from the podium frequently.

Some you folk need to stop revising history!

I didn't say they complained about the Renault V8.

They failed to praise it.

[toraabe]

Oh c'mon, RedBull have every right to complain as Renault have clearly screwed up big time.

Maybe if RBR thanked them for the 4 titles Renault helped win?

RBR should be more than happy about what they have achieved with Renault between 2010 and 2013 4 in a row And 2014 beginning to critisize public on your engine provider. Instead try to sort it out together in which should give you even more motivation. I can only say that RBR and Toro Rosso have been everything but nice to Renault, and it is just bouncing back on themselves. I am sure that the problems that Renault has with their V6 PU specially this year more or less is down to RBR in which resulted in shortcuts in the developing and engine failures as a result of this. Things takes sometimes time and I am sure that RBR if they would have been supporting their engine provider professionally, this story would have been completely different.

[Triumph1188]

I didn't say they complained about the Renault V8.

They failed to praise it.

Perhaps I haven't paid close enough attention to podium interviews etc, but I haven't heard Massa or Bottas specifically thank Mercedes for putting their power unit in the back of their car. They thank the team, but have not, to my recollection named Mercedes.

The Red Bull flame fest for mainly stating the facts about the state of affairs seems sort of silly. Yes it could have been handled differently. But the bottom line is that RBR wants to win. Renault did a terrible job of creating a competitive power unit in this current formula, and they have also failed to work reliability into it as well. So RBR goes into the new engine formula expecting to win, and 2014 saw them as the 2nd most competitive team. One would expect a step to close the gap, and they are instead supplied with power units that are more unreliable and under powered than the previous year.

When the press asked why they are taking grid penalties for engine changes, and the car loses out to merc and Ferrari power on the straights, what answer do you give? I'm sorry, I just don't know how to spin it to make Renault look good, or at least, not bad.

I hope their, is it now slated for Austin? update, shows improvement. I am not even certain that power unit will even be in the back of a f1 car next year. But it would be nice to see a building block for Renault to work forward on for their works team if the Lotus deal comes through.

[PlatinumZealot]

Oh c'mon, RedBull have every right to complain as Renault have clearly screwed up big time.

Maybe if RBR thanked them for the 4 titles Renault helped win?

The only time RedBull complained about the V8 was when Renault stuck to the spirit of the development freeze agreement and ended up down on power compared to Ferrari and Mercedes. They weren't attacking Renault, they were lobbying the FiA to allow Renault to catch up.

Both Seb and Mark praised the Renault V8 from the podium frequently.

Some you folk need to stop revising history!

They only say Thank you to Renault as a formal mention. They never said anything like, these Renault engine is unbelievable! - never.

The way they have thrown Renault under the bus is just unprofessional. They should take a page from Mclaren's book but it is too late the damage is already done to Renault.

[ME4ME]

They should take a page from Mclaren's book

Give it 6-7 months, and you'll see Mclaren taking a page from Red Bull's book

[Blackout]

I couldn't agree with you more on the length of the charge air plumbing. To me it really seems this is where Renault got it all wrong and for what ever reason they don't seem to be willing or able to changing the layout (pride?).

As we all know Mercedes, Ferrari and even Honda have opted for a much more direct and shorter charged air plumbing path which makes an enormous amount of sense from an efficiency standpoint -no other manufacture has adopted this layout for good reason.

Just looking at the length of the Renault setup I just can't imagine they can feed enough charged and cooled air at a reasonable amount at both low and high revs. It would seem the engine would simply run out of efficient airflow especially at high revs as the air would just simply take too long to reach the intake manifold and would probably be down on boost pressure and up in temperature.
From what I understand and read they seem to be more focused on improving the combustion process of their engine (redesigning the combustion chamber) rather than redesigning the layout. I understand that they probably have a limited budget which limits how much they can spend but I would think this would be their first priority as it would seem there is low hanging fruit to be had in terms of horsepower and efficiency. Why try to build upon this concept when after two iterations (2014 and 2015 engines) it is still considerably down on power?

Any thoughts?

Maybe they didnt have anough time for 2015. When Taffin saw the Mercedes layout he pointed out the short way between the turbo, intake and the intercooler and described it as an advantage.
If Renault wants to get that advantage (+ some tother advatages), they must either get the compressor closer to the sidepods where the intercoolers sit (by splitting the turbo like Merc? placing the turbo closer to the V6 by getting rid of the disc-shaped compressor air-box and replacing it with an L shaped one that crosses the engine's V?) or place the inercooler closer to the engine (by making an air-water intercooler and placing it somewhere between the turbo and intake manifold?)

If Renault had Merc's budget and/or a real chassis/factory team like Merc and Ferrari, would they have produced a PU as basic as this?

Rob White said in 2014 that turbo lag would last 0.3 to 0.4s "if we dont do anything" (if we dont put an MGuH?) and that drivers start complaining about lag when it lasts 0.1s. But in 2015 in Spa Renault said they can reduce lag nowadays to 0.2s, But I dont know if that's with or without MGuH...

Google translate:

The response of the turbo is one of the key factors of performance at Spa. The majority of slow corners, such as the Bus Stop chicane, Les Combes and The Source, above a strong acceleration. Engineers must then study the maps as much as possible to shorten the latency, because it is now almost 0.2s elapses between when the driver presses on the pedal and when the turbocharger has effect.

[gandharva]

The planned engine update will not be ready until Austin and no info on how much tokens they are ging to use...

[djos]

The planned engine update will not be ready until Austin and no info on how much tokens they are ging to use...

It better be something pretty special or Renault will be wearing a full dozens eggs again!

[Juzh]

Given their track record I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Blackout]

If they sorted out the dyno/track correlation issues and did not rush the validation phase like before Melbourne, why not..?

The planned engine update will not be ready until Austin and no info on how much tokens they are ging to use...

AMuS says Renault will only use 4 tokens in Austin...
But even if Renault uses 12 tokens, they will not necessarily bring a huge performance gain; Renault might use those 12 tokens to build a platform for the 2016 25 tokens; to pave the way for a big architecture change in 2016 for example. So, many of the 2015 changes would not be RS34-2015 compatible.

[toraabe]

If they sorted out the dyno/track correlation issues and did not rush the validation phase like before Melbourne, why not..?

The planned engine update will not be ready until Austin and no info on how much tokens they are ging to use...

AMuS says Renault will only use 4 tokens in Austin...
But even if Renault uses 12 tokens, they will not necessarily bring a huge performance gain; Renault might use those 12 tokens to build a platform for the 2016 25 tokens; to pave the way for a big architecture change in 2016 for example. So, many of the 2015 changes would not be RS34-2015 compatible.

Remember that Mercedes certainly also is involved in this process. It is also in Mercedes interest as a partner and a vice versa shareholder that Renault becomes competitive. It is also why Merc never vil step on Renault's feet. ( see red bull ). What i think is that Merc wll provide Renault with their Turbo / MGU-H solution and fabricate it so it is fitting onto Renault's Engine block and intake.

[turbof1]

The planned engine update will not be ready until Austin and no info on how much tokens they are ging to use...

It better be something pretty special or Renault will be wearing a full dozens eggs again!

Special or not, but they will have to use them, or if not used before the last race loose those tokens.

In theory, they are actually depending on Toro Rosso and Red Bull to effectively use them. If those want to give a stomp between the ribs to Renault, they can actually say "nah, we are not going to use them". As long as no engine has been fired up with the used tokens during an official fia sanctioned event, those tokens are considered not to be used.

[djos]

Leaving it so late does introduce the risk of the new engines not being able to be used.

On the other hand, the Renault PU's have been pretty unreliable to date and required frequent replacement.

[wuzak]

The planned engine update will not be ready until Austin and no info on how much tokens they are ging to use...

It better be something pretty special or Renault will be wearing a full dozens eggs again!

Special or not, but they will have to use them, or if not used before the last race loose those tokens.

In theory, they are actually depending on Toro Rosso and Red Bull to effectively use them. If those want to give a stomp between the ribs to Renault, they can actually say "nah, we are not going to use them". As long as no engine has been fired up with the used tokens during an official fia sanctioned event, those tokens are considered not to be used.

I think if they submit them to the FIA to show what has been changed the tokens would be considered spent.

The manufacturers must have to submit their PU's to the FIA before they can be used so that they can be signed off as legal.

Each unit has to be homologated before it is used.

[godlameroso]

I'm going to laugh if the new engines make the Red Bull more competitive, because they'll have shot themselves in the foot, since Renault is leaving.