British GP 2010 - Silverstone

[Shaddock]

Didn't see that one. Bit blurry though. The on-board footage from Vettels car would be better. I'm pretty certain that there wasn't any contact anyway. Just a good firm but fair pass.

Sutil was pretty angry with the move;

"It was good racing and I defended my position well against Vettel until the final lap, but then he just seemed to drive into me and I lost the racing line and had to move over," Sutil said. "Otherwise I don't think he would have got past me.

On the other hand, it's racing and people paid a lot of money to be entertained today, so you can't have it both ways.

[Intego]

My problem isn't with Vettel in this instance it's with the inconsistent analysis from his fans. [...]

I think we agree here but I want to include all the other racer's fans.

In Turkey WB tried to justify the Webber/Vettel incident as being Webber's fault as 'Vettel was ahead so he could choose to drive any line he wanted.' Other fans lined up on both sides.

I also think it was a bit more Webbers fault, because he doesn't want to let his last chance of winning the WDC flip away. But neither was he "allowed" to make room that tight nor should Vettel have made this harsh move to the right.

Now Vettel gains a place by hitting the middle of another car with his front tyre, and those same posters are blaming the lead driver.

Sutil wanted to close the door, but it was too late. It was almost the same with Alonso and Kubica. I'm Sutil fan, but I enjoyed Vettels move. I remember a brilliant move from Schumacher against Alesi in 1995 at the Nürburgring. In the last or almost last lap Schumacher tried to catch him in the chicane and touched the Ferrari's sidepod with his front tyre. That's racing.

WB also criticised Hamilton for the first corner incident with Vettel saying that he was a foot away from the inside of the track at the time so Vettel had left him enough room [...]

And that's exactly how it was as even Vettel and Hamilton affirmed.

WB also came out with a ridiculous comment that Vettel had passed something like 17 cars on track! Watching the race I saw a whole load of incidents where Vettel got past cars that had either retired or made huge mistakes or pitted or had a penalty, etc. coupled with maybe four true on track overtakes.

It wasn't 17 but more than four, but does that matter? That's more than Button achieved the whole season.

Both you and WB even comment on Vettel getting past the Force India and how the latter was faster in a straight line, even though the speed trap actually tells a different story. Vettel was actually 2kmph faster than Sutil and the fastest driver in the race in a straight line.

I sadly don't have any data from the race speed trap, because F1.com doesn't support that. In practices and Qualifying it was 10 kph.

So yes each situation is different, etc. etc. but some of us are criticising is the inconsistency which mysteriously results in a single driver always coming up smelling of roses whilst others are criticised. Some are calling that fanboyism, I can sometimes see why.

Agreed. But you can't combat fanboyism with fanboyism or anti-fanboyism. Fans watch RTL (that incompetent broadcast station that destroys Formula One in Germany ). On f1technical.net I'd like to analyse cars and races, like they really were and not like they were seen.

Maybe we should make race records and share them in case of unclarities. If I have the technical ability, I will let you know.

Edit: Uh, I usually dislike this sort of posting, sorry for that.

[bean]

WB also came out with a ridiculous comment that Vettel had passed something like 17 cars on track! Watching the race I saw a whole load of incidents where Vettel got past cars that had either retired or made huge mistakes or pitted or had a penalty, etc. coupled with maybe four true on track overtakes.

It wasn't 17 but more than four, but does that matter? That's more than Button achieved the whole season.

What about Button moving from 14th to 8th on the first lap?

Agreed. But you can't combat fanboyism with fanboyism or anti-fanboyism. Fans watch RTL (that incompetent broadcast station that destroys Formula One in Germany ). On f1technical.net I'd like to analyse cars and races, like they really were and not like they were seen.

You like to analyse races like they really were? - you must have missed the first lap.

[Giblet]

I also think it was a bit more Webbers fault, because he doesn't want to let his last chance of winning the WDC flip away.

Well, if Red Bull put out another good car next year, then this isn't his last chance. He's contracted for 2011.

[WhiteBlue]

Thanks Intego for injecting a bit of realism into the debate.

I'm not going to discuss a bunch of off topic issues with myurr in this race thread, we may use other more appropriate space for that.

Sorry for forgetting the retiring cars in my analysis of Vettel's passing maneuvers. My bad. Certainly Kubica and perhaps De la Rosa were probably out before he got them. I'm pretty sure he passed Di Grassi, Alguersuari and Yamamoto. I'm correcting my figure of 17 passes down to 15 which still looks impressive to me on one set of tyres and provided a main spectacle of the otherwise dull race.

I'm not counting the drama around Fernando here. He should not have been subjected to this nightmare in the first place. It took way too long for the stewards to come to a decision and when the decision came it was blown out of proportion by the safety car. I think this time Fernando has a legitimate grief with the stewards. What the heck went on there? They had no excuse to take all that time. This stewarding decision reminded me of Silverstone 1994 when a very provocative stewarding decision pushed Briatore into rebellion and got Schumacher black flagged.

Someone suggested Alonso and Ferrari should have done the same here. That is bollocks obviously but Ferrari and the fans deserve to hear what caused that penalty to hang in the balance over so many laps. No doubt some serious politicking must have gone on in the back ground.

[Pup]

Alonso could have avoided the problem by giving the position back. Pushed or not, you don't pass off-track. It was stupid.

And of course, if he hadn't botched the start, he'd never have been in that position anyway. You make your bed...

I didn't see anything special about Vettel today. How many times do we see guys in less dominating cars work their way from last to 4th or 5th? Vettel didn't even do that, despite being helped tremendously by the safety car and an hour of clear track. So come on, the guy was a full second faster in qually than every single car he passed in the race - from Hulkenburg down, he was a full 2 seconds faster! Sorry, but given the circumstances, at the very least he should have been on Button's gearbox at the end. Geesh, at one point, his team even had to get on the radio to tell him to stop pouting and get on with his job - how can you even begin to call that an impressive drive?

[ringo]

Thanks Intego for injecting a bit of realism into the debate.

I'm not going to discuss a bunch of off topic issues with myurr in this race thread, we may use other more appropriate space for that.

Sorry for forgetting the retiring cars in my analysis of Vettel's passing maneuvers. My bad. Certainly Kubica and perhaps De la Rosa were probably out before he got them. I'm pretty sure he passed Di Grassi, Alguersuari and Yamamoto. I'm correcting my figure of 17 passes down to 15 which still looks impressive to me on one set of tyres and provided a main spectacle of the otherwise dull race.

I'm not counting the drama around Fernando here. He should not have been subjected to this nightmare in the first place. It took way too long for the stewards to come to a decision and when the decision came it was blown out of proportion by the safety car. I think this time Fernando has a legitimate grief with the stewards. What the heck went on there? They had no excuse to take all that time. This stewarding decision reminded me of Silverstone 1994 when a very provocative stewarding decision pushed Briatore into rebellion and got Schumacher black flagged.

Someone suggested Alonso and Ferrari should have done the same here. That is bollocks obviously but Ferrari and the fans deserve to hear what caused that penalty to hang in the balance over so many laps. No doubt some serious politicking must have gone on in the back ground.

Not to be cynical but Mansel manipulation to podium Button at english GP?
things seem to fall into place quite well for him around those laps after alosno cut kubica off...

[WhiteBlue]

Nobody ever denied that the safety car helped Vettel back to 45 s he had lost before. But the safety car did not help him make 15 successful passes. People here also seem to forget that Vettel's car was damaged from a complete lap with a flapping tyre and that he did all those passes in one 50 lap tyre stint.

Red Bull were clearly happy with his performance and so was I. Nice job done. =D> If he disappointed some, be it. You can disappoint by being brilliant. It is all in the eye of the observer. If he wants the driver to fail he will be disappointed by every positve news.

Sutil's comment that Vettel drove into him was clearly representing the facts upside down. Good try Adrian, but better not snooze and leave a gap as wide as a barn door next time.

[andartop]

...
I'm not counting the drama around Fernando here. He should not have been subjected to this nightmare in the first place. It took way too long for the stewards to come to a decision and when the decision came it was blown out of proportion by the safety car. I think this time Fernando has a legitimate grief with the stewards. What the heck went on there? They had no excuse to take all that time. This stewarding decision reminded me of Silverstone 1994 when a very provocative stewarding decision pushed Briatore into rebellion and got Schumacher black flagged.

Someone suggested Alonso and Ferrari should have done the same here. That is bollocks obviously but Ferrari and the fans deserve to hear what caused that penalty to hang in the balance over so many laps. No doubt some serious politicking must have gone on in the back ground.

Nope. I did not suggest they should have done that, I only said if I were Alonso that's what I would have done!

Of course he should have let Kubica regain his position straight after the incident. Room or no room, he did overtake with all four wheels out of the track.

Thing that annoys me though is that quite a few other on track incidents this year have occured and the drivers were only given a reprimand or a fine, or the newly discovered 5 sec penalty. We've also seen the same driver being reprimanded on multiple occasions, which is kinda funny in itself. I would have thought the only reason for that was the stewards did not want to spoil the race for an incident that did not have any significant impact on someone else or the race itself. Clearly that was not the case yesterday.

Surely, by the rules the penalty was fair, tough but fair. The SC was just bad luck.

Still, with such a sequence of events happening I would have been really mad in Alonso's place. As he was. So, that's what I would do, just go ahead and finish the race. What the heck, I could even lie to the stewards afterwards and say I did not see the black flag; others can't see a red traffic light or a whole safety car, the flag is surely smaller than that!!!

[mr moda]

Well well well. Sebs cast off tub and wing and Webber brings it home. Nice one.
Vettel concentrates on trying to take out his team mate at the start instead of his own racing line and pays the price.
Hamilton showed once again he can deliver the goods.
Nico Rosberg very deserved. Wish he would start getting a bit more press than his more undeserving team mate.
Alonso. Have to feel sorry for him. Cant take a trick at the moment BUT he should have dropped back when he had the chance.
Kubica - wish he had finished. Personally think he is becoming a fine team builder. Something I wasnt to sure of at the start of the season.
Rubens gives Williams something to smile about for a change.
Sutil has every right to feel angry.

[myurr]

Sutil's comment that Vettel drove into him was clearly representing the facts upside down. Good try Adrian, but better not snooze and leave a gap as wide as a barn door next time.

Even in your own pictures the cars behind follow the exact line that Sutil took, so he was just following the racing line. Vettel did a Rubens / Massa and just stuck a half hearted overtake into the side of the lead car. This time he not only got away with it and luckily didn't cause any damage on either car but caused enough of a problem for Sutil to make it stick.

You have always been one of those on here claiming the lead driver has every right to follow the racing line and that the overtaking or defending driver should back off to avoid making contact. I actually disagreed with you, I just want some consistency!

[mr moda]

=D> =D> =D>

[myurr]

I'm not counting the drama around Fernando here. He should not have been subjected to this nightmare in the first place. It took way too long for the stewards to come to a decision and when the decision came it was blown out of proportion by the safety car. I think this time Fernando has a legitimate grief with the stewards. What the heck went on there? They had no excuse to take all that time.

There were two main reasons that the stewards decision took so long - the first is that Ferrari were, in their own words, discussing the incident with race control which implies that they were having a back and forward conversation which would have been delaying the matter from being referred to the stewards.

The second reason is that the stewards have to follow due process, and that is an important point as they are governed by international law and can be taken to court over their decisions. This isn't some gut decision based on the TV feed replay, they HAVE to collect the evidence, review it, discuss and come to a decision that then has to be relayed back to the team.

Alonso / Ferrari should just have conceded the place and then worked on overtaking him again - I was actually gob smacked when I saw Alonso try and keep the place as it was only ever going to end with either him having to give the place back immediately or him getting a drive through penalty. There is so much precedence there was never going to be any other outcome.

Does anyone know what the exact process is? I would be interested to know.

[Paul Oz]

Not to be cynical but Mansel manipulation to podium Button at english GP?
things seem to fall into place quite well for him around those laps after alosno cut kubica off...

Mansell was an advisor without direct responsibility, not a steward.....

[Paul Oz]

I'm not here to bicker with you about this pass, so I'll keep it in a broad sense. Vettel has yet to show passing smarts on any level. Going inside Sutil, who has a history of not leaving room, is a low percentage move.

I tend to agree. He does occasionally pull off a cracker, perhaps aided by being in a significantly faster car eh..... but he does regularly make a half hearted attempt from too far back thats always going to end in tears.