Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

[LionKing]

He was "actually" 3 tenths slower

[raymondu999]

There's more than just Silverstone and Alonso, which would give Alonso 7 points.
If Webber was less-skilled and would not have finished ahead of Vettel, Vettel would have 9 points extra.

Just saying, it's not quite that simple.

I think we all would agree that Hamilton would be champ in 2012 if we start picking out the bad luck from drivers.
I think you even came to that conclusion yourself.

Who said anything about luck? This is about "simulating" a Webber DNF (ie the points haul of a rubbish driver) then adding up the points

[SectorOne]

There's more than just Silverstone and Alonso, which would give Alonso 7 points.
If Webber was less-skilled and would not have finished ahead of Vettel, Vettel would have 9 points extra.

Just saying, it's not quite that simple.

I think we all would agree that Hamilton would be champ in 2012 if we start picking out the bad luck from drivers.
I think you even came to that conclusion yourself.

Who said anything about luck? This is about "simulating" a Webber DNF (ie the points haul of a rubbish driver) then adding up the points

People started discussing about abstract things like "if he did this, Vettel would not be champ" or "But Vettel did this so he would have been champ" so i basically said that if you keep doing those abstract things Hamilton would end up on top.
It´s an irrelevant discussion because it´s all abstract things in the past that never happened.

[raymondu999]

People started discussing about abstract things like "if he did this, Vettel would not be champ" or "But Vettel did this so he would have been champ" so i basically said that if you keep doing those abstract things Hamilton would end up on top.
It´s an irrelevant discussion because it´s all abstract things in the past that never happened.

Ah yes. Those are irrelevant. But I think you misunderstood this one - this is discussing the importance of a good teammate towards winning the WDC (not WCC)

Hence we compare 2 situations for Vettel in 2012:
a) your teammate is Webber - he can become WDC
b) your teammate is a backmarker that scores 0 points - in order to know the importance, we simulate this and do it by deleting Mark's results and moving everyone else up.

In this particular post, it's not discussing luck - it's discussing the importance of your teammate if you want to be WDC

[JimClarkFan]

He was "actually" 3 tenths slower

Not what I have read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23960315

But I see others are saying different

[SectorOne]

People started discussing about abstract things like "if he did this, Vettel would not be champ" or "But Vettel did this so he would have been champ" so i basically said that if you keep doing those abstract things Hamilton would end up on top.
It´s an irrelevant discussion because it´s all abstract things in the past that never happened.

Ah yes. Those are irrelevant. But I think you misunderstood this one - this is discussing the importance of a good teammate towards winning the WDC (not WCC)

Hence we compare 2 situations for Vettel in 2012:
a) your teammate is Webber - he can become WDC
b) your teammate is a backmarker that scores 0 points - in order to know the importance, we simulate this and do it by deleting Mark's results and moving everyone else up.

In this particular post, it's not discussing luck - it's discussing the importance of your teammate if you want to be WDC

Actually that´s another dicsussion running parallel.

I´m talking about these comments,

Not true. Without Webber's overtake at Silverstone last year, Vettel would not have won the title.

There's more than just Silverstone and Alonso, which would give Alonso 7 points.

These are abstract stuff and this was the thing my post was aimed at. I´m fully aware of the other discussion regarding Ricciardo´s strength compared to Webber/Vettel.

[LionKing]

He was "actually" 3 tenths slower

Not what I have read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23960315

But I see others are saying different

The top lap times from the test are available in lots of websites.

That article is by Andrew Benson, he is infamous for bias in his articles and colomn for the drivers he loves.
"Several times, Webber has been told not to try to pass Vettel when he felt he was faster

Recently, the justification is clear - Vettel is their more consistent front-line performer. But it happened even in 2010, when both were in the running for the title and Webber was actually ahead on points"

I know Silverstone 2011 where Webber actually ignored and tried to pass, but I don't remember any other in 2010 or anytime else... 2010 was perfect storm for Webber with Vettel's bunch of reliability issues, Hungary penalty etc. But he still could not manage to win the title. Crashing in Korea, qualifying more than half a second of Vettel in Abu Dhabi etc...

[JimClarkFan]

He was "actually" 3 tenths slower

Not what I have read
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23960315

But I see others are saying different

The top lap times from the test are available in lots of websites.

That article is by Andrew Benson, he is infamous for bias in his articles and colomn for the drivers he loves.
"Several times, Webber has been told not to try to pass Vettel when he felt he was faster

Recently, the justification is clear - Vettel is their more consistent front-line performer. But it happened even in 2010, when both were in the running for the title and Webber was actually ahead on points"

I know Silverstone 2011 where Webber actually ignored and tried to pass, but I don't remember any other in 2010 or anytime else... 2010 was perfect storm for Webber with Vettel's bunch of reliability issues, Hungary penalty etc. But he still could not manage to win the title. Crashing in Korea, qualifying more than half a second of Vettel in Abu Dhabi etc...

That is not really the point being made, the point is that the red bull insiders said that in a like for a like car, in like for like conditions, ricciardo was faster than vettel. I don't know how good benson is as a journalist, however since he is simply claiming to be passing along a conversation he has had, and since he is presenting their view and not his, I tend to believe it. He is either doing just that or lying.

[munudeges]

That is not really the point being made, the point is that the red bull insiders said that in a like for a like car, in like for like conditions, ricciardo was faster than vettel.

Crap. Vettel took part in a young driver test he wasn't sure he was going to be in and was out on a cruise. Whoever the 'Red Bull insiders' were they were probably part of the Marko camp. It's hardly representative of anything, particularly as it was a Pirelli tyre test as well.

If he really was that spectacular he would have been signed up immediately and we wouldn't have had what we've had over the past few weeks.

[JimClarkFan]

That is not really the point being made, the point is that the red bull insiders said that in a like for a like car, in like for like conditions, ricciardo was faster than vettel.

Crap. Vettel took part in a young driver test he wasn't sure he was going to be in and was out on a cruise. Whoever the 'Red Bull insiders' were they were probably part of the Marko camp. It's hardly representative of anything, particularly as it was a Pirelli tyre test as well.

If he really was that spectacular he would have been signed up immediately and we wouldn't have had what we've had over the past few weeks.

I don't think you can know anything of what you just said.

For all the talk, no one in this thread will have as much insight on these situations as benson irrespective how good or bad of a journalist he is. Given his position in bbc f1, his colleagues, and who his likely to come in to contact with, I would safely say that he knows more about f1 that many of the f1tech posters. You preface your facts with 'probably' and that is all we need to know.

And don't forget that I said on the previous page that I didn't think testing mattered that much. I don't understand why some can't handle a few facts if they don't fit their view on f1. Instead of considering the fact, you all rally against who delivered the fact, in this case benson.

Makes sense.

[munudeges]

Benson pulls stuff out of thin air and repeats what he's told at times. To pull figures from a young driver Pirelli test to paint a picture (Vettel was still fastest by the way) given to him by 'unnamed sources' of an unspecified lap or set of laps is just not credible, and people around here should know better. Not only is Benson not credible it's just pure nonsense.

[JimClarkFan]

Benson pulls stuff out of thin air and repeats what he's told at times. To pull figures from a young driver Pirelli test to paint a picture (Vettel was still fastest by the way) given to him by 'unnamed sources' of an unspecified lap or set of laps is just not credible, and people around here should know better. Not only is Benson not credible it's just pure nonsense.

That's the way journalism works, how much inside scoops do you think journalists would get if they went around naming their sources who asked NOT to be named.

And for all the talk about benson one sided journalism, he has always lavished praise on vettel. Except not now apparently.

[munudeges]

Putting Benson completely to one side it is still nonsense. Vettel was still fastest in that test and we're not told what selected laps were taken into consideration or when they were done.

[JimClarkFan]

Putting Benson completely to one side it is still nonsense. Vettel was still fastest in that test and we're not told what selected laps were taken into consideration or when they were done.

How can you claim it is nonsense and then quote something which bares no relevance to the point at hand. I quoted directly from Bensons article on page 2...

''of comparative specification - same fuel load, tyres, etc - and in similar conditions (albeit on a different day).''

which makes the claim that in like for like cars, like for like fuel loads, like for like tyres and similar conditions, Red Bull insiders said Riccardo was 0.2 seconds faster. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23960315

Either Benson is lying, or that was what was said. If you want to keep throwing around official time sheets as a means to prove your point, when it bares no relevancy to the point being made then fine. If you want to keep insisting the specific point is nonsense, yet have no basis on which to do so, and expect me to believe you have a better insight than journalists who do this for a living... then fine. Just don't expect me to reply anymore.

[munudeges]

Are people taking crazy pills on this thread or something? It's got everything to do with the point at hand.

Vettel was fastest at that test. Fact. Not Ricciardo. Benson's article is quoting 'Red Bull sources' who proceeded to tell him that Ricciardo was two tenths faster on similar fuel loads etc. but doesn't tell him at all where those (probably carefully) selected laps were done. It matters not whether Benson was lying or not - he probably wasn't - there's a political battle at Red Bull right now. But what he provides cannot be backed up by any recorded times anywhere. It's pure, unadulterated nonsense.