Haas - American team in F1

[Moxie]

Just making the point that you can cherry pick your list to imply whatever you want.

Jersey Tom - I didn't mean to offend, that wasn't the point - and yes - I intentionally cherry picked those to better illustrate a point. I could have pasted the entire list and it would not have made any difference. I doubt anyone could argue what type of audience NASCAR is marketed to and that it's not really global - would you agree? Example:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Kjn7RJQf1jQ/U ... 600/43.jpg

Aric Almirola - 43 - Smithfield Foods/STP/Air Force - Ford - Richard Petty Motorsports

Sure, there are several sponsors - but the car is clearly a calling card for the US military.

http://www.jayski.com/schemes/2009/cup/ ... 00qual.jpg

Jamie McMurray - 1 - McDonald's/Cessna - Chevrolet - Chip Ganassi Racing with Felix Sabates

If you can find "cessna" on there - let me know!

The actual point I'm trying to get across is IMO Haas is going to have a very tough time trying to sell F1 to the NASCAR market - because they are a certain type of audience. Now if Haas is saying "forget that crowd, I'm going to source a new audience" - well how? The 'brains trust' at FOM can't even do that. Which is why I'm baffled as to why he's doing it at all.

It doesn't need to be global, and Haas does not need to sell F1 to the NASCAR market. The point of my earlier post, (the deleted one, and the later summary) was that NASCAR doesn't market a single racing series to the whole world, as if it is the only racing series that matters. Of course it has it's traditional demographic that still dominates its business model, but it is expanding into other markets and demographics. It is expanding into Europe, and road racing, and even internet racing/gaming. The sponsors reflect the demographic that watches a particular series. European sponsors for a European series. In fact some sponsors will likely be global, but advertise certain brands to the Sprint Cup market, and other brands to the Euroseries market.

[Cam]

Moreover, it's extremely arrogant to assume that one's own subjective assessment of anything is an objective reality that others should observe as fact.

It is a fact that Formula One is the most prestigious and widely followed racing series in the world. Deal with it. The winners of the championship each year are crowned as World Champions. Deal with it. It really is remarkable that I am being attacked for speaking the truth.

You're not being attacked. People are trying to get you to see another perspective. To just stand on a soap box and proclaim "the end is coming" with out backing it up - makes you look.... well, crazy.

Formula One is the most prestigious and widely followed racing series in the world

Demonstrate it. Outline with facts, quotes and statements that support your theory.

The winners of the championship each year are crowned as World Champions

That's because the FIA hold the right to use that term - they in turn license that to F1. But is it accurate? Typically in sport, to gain "World Champion" status, you must go up against the entire world's best and compete on a level field - such as running, or swimming. F1 is about as far away from a level field as you can get, where the "best" compete (cough Maldonado) - so can you see that perspective? You don't have to agree, but can you at least acknowledge that point of view?

These are all factors Haas and his advisers will be considering in their approach to entering F1. F1 isn't static - it's dynamic, it's changing all the time, so trying to get a full grasp around exactly what F1 is very difficult at the moment.

[Cam]

It doesn't need to be global, and Haas does not need to sell F1 to the NASCAR market. The point of my earlier post, (the deleted one, and the later summary) was that NASCAR doesn't market a single racing series to the whole world, as if it is the only racing series that matters. Of course it has it's traditional demographic that still dominates its business model, but it is expanding into other markets and demographics. It is expanding into Europe, and road racing, and even internet racing/gaming. The sponsors reflect the demographic that watches a particular series. European sponsors for a European series.

I don't understand the point your trying to make. This is about Haas' motivations on entering F1. He has to find sponsors and wants Americans to support his venture - like Italians support Ferrari. Would you agree?

[stephenwh]

Moreover, it's extremely arrogant to assume that one's own subjective assessment of anything is an objective reality that others should observe as fact.

It is a fact that Formula One is the most prestigious and widely followed racing series in the world. Deal with it. The winners of the championship each year are crowned as World Champions. Deal with it. It really is remarkable that I am being attacked for speaking the truth.

You're not being attacked. People are trying to get you to see another perspective. To just stand on a soap box and proclaim "the end is coming" with out backing it up - makes you look.... well, crazy.

Formula One is the most prestigious and widely followed racing series in the world

Demonstrate it. Outline with facts, quotes and statements that support your theory.

It doesn't need to be demonstrated, it's a well known fact. It is only the jaded subset of disgruntled fans that perpetuates the urban myth that F1 has declined in stature because of <insert change you hate here>.

The winners of the championship each year are crowned as World Champions

That's because the FIA hold the right to use that term - they in turn license that to F1. But is it accurate? Typically in sport, to gain "World Champion" status, you must go up against the entire world's best and compete on a level field - such as running, or swimming. F1 is about as far away from a level field as you can get, where the "best" compete (cough Maldonado) - so can you see that perspective? You don't have to agree, but can you at least acknowledge that point of view?

Everything is relative. In the auto racing world, because of the way it is sub-divided, F1 is the world championship by default, it races in a lot of different places and has a very diverse field of drivers. And Maldonado has a race win in Formula One, you can't take that away from him. He obviously is deserving.

These are all factors Haas and his advisers will be considering in their approach to entering F1. F1 isn't static - it's dynamic, it's changing all the time, so trying to get a full grasp around exactly what F1 is very difficult at the moment.

It is pretty straight forward, F1 had to evolve it's engine formula, because the na v8 was fast becoming irrelevant. It is going to take some time for the teams to come to grips with this massive change and for the lap times to come down, but they will, they always do. It's about the big change and the adaptation to it. It's a great time for Haas to get involved.

[Moxie]

It doesn't need to be global, and Haas does not need to sell F1 to the NASCAR market. The point of my earlier post, (the deleted one, and the later summary) was that NASCAR doesn't market a single racing series to the whole world, as if it is the only racing series that matters. Of course it has it's traditional demographic that still dominates its business model, but it is expanding into other markets and demographics. It is expanding into Europe, and road racing, and even internet racing/gaming. The sponsors reflect the demographic that watches a particular series. European sponsors for a European series.

I don't understand the point your trying to make. This is about Haas' motivations on entering F1. He has to find sponsors and wants Americans to support his venture - like Italians support Ferrari. Would you agree?

I agree that he has to find sponsors... Those sponsors can be any firm that wants to advertise to a global audience. They need not be "American"

As for American "support," I am sure he would love to develop something of an American fan base, but if you are speaking of financial support I really doubt he cares about the location of his source of financial support.

As an American F1 fan, I certainly don't need to see an F1 car sponsored by Budweiser. Any brand sold by the InBev corp. will be fine. (Although I admit that it would be great to see an F1 car sponsored by Wild Turkey, or Pabst Blue Ribbon)

[stephenwh]

Rather than try to dissect why people buy what they buy in this thread - I'm trying to illustrate how different audiences react and how different motorsports cater for that. Haas is entering F1 why? To win trophies? Ppfff, hardly. He wants to make money - how? Sponsors!!! He's going to sell ad space on every shirt, car panel, hat and beer cooler he find space on. The type of sponsor will directly reflect what F1 is, where F1 is shown and what audience Haas can show it too. The US is not a big market for F1 - even though they are motorsport nuts. How will yanks handle quiet vacuum cleaners rolling around at half speed? How will Haas sell that?

The press conference is available out there on youtube I believe. He made it very clear why he is getting involved, he has a global brand and he is already a race team owner and he wants his brand associated with the prestige of F1. He is under no illusions that you go F1 racing to make money, he sees an intangible/not easily quantified value for his investment. And the cars are not rolling around at half speed, if that was true the lap times would be much higher.

[Cam]

I agree that he has to find sponsors... Those sponsors can be any firm that wants to advertise to a global audience. They need not be "American"

As for American "support," I am sure he would love to develop something of an American fan base, but if you are speaking of financial support I really doubt he cares about the location of his source of financial support.

As an American F1 fan, I certainly don't need to see an F1 car sponsored by Budweiser. Any brand sold by the InBev corp. will be fine. (Although I admit that it would be great to see an F1 car sponsored by Wild Turkey, or Pabst Blue Ribbon)

Yep - perfect example I think of what Haas will try to do. It makes no sense to have an 'American' team sponsored by a Japanese tech company, for example. Having Budweiser on there could be a great opportunity to grow that brand globally. I know we have it where I live but it's not popular.

Haas needs money to do this. Sponsors will give him that cash - unless he want to bank roll the whole thing himself - which is doubtful and unless you, as an American F1 fan, are happy to see the USA team with 'Dubai Airways' on it - then this matters - IMO.

[Cam]

The press conference is available out there on youtube I believe. He made it very clear why he is getting involved, he has a global brand and he is already a race team owner and he wants his brand associated with the prestige of F1. He is under no illusions that you go F1 racing to make money, he sees an intangible/not easily quantified value for his investment. And the cars are not rolling around at half speed, if that was true the lap times would be much higher.

I assume you talking about Haas Automation?

Haas Automation, Inc. is one of the largest unit volume machine tool builders in the world. Haas Automation manufactures computer numerically controlled (CNC) vertical machining centers, horizontal machining centers, CNC lathes/turning centers, and CNC rotary tables and indexers.

So are you suggesting Haas Automation will be the title sponsor?

Edit: I'm not trying to be funny about this - but Haas is outsourcing the whole lot. So how on earth will he tie anything apart from "project management" back to the Haas brand?

[stephenwh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9UOVf8HTq8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKXtQ-HIf2E

[Jersey Tom]

I have also watched the subset of disgruntled fan base that you represent evolve. I really do think the folks that are disgruntled, and who lurk on F1 forums ready to pig pile on any fan, are essentially trolls.

[...]

To hang out on an F1 site and to constantly put it down, well, that's pretty childish, not to mention a waste of time.

Well, let me offer some alternate perspective here... and I'll try to keep this guided on the topic of the thread. I't not about "putting down" F1 as much as it is bringing it down to Earth and demystifying it. That's why, in my opinion, this is F1 Technical and not F1 Blind Rabid Fandom Forum. This is where we try to be objective.

Now I'll be first to admit, before I started working in racing I thought F1 was top of the mountain and where I'd want to work, yatta yatta. Since then, my experience is that's just not the case.

It really doesn't have that much of an allure that everybody in racing wants to do it. There are a lot of people at the top of their game - drivers, engineers, fabricators, mechanics - who just aren't interested. Hell, I'm not and I've had the opportunity. It's just completely apples and oranges different world than pro stock car racing, pro drag racing, pro open wheel oval racing. For every Adrian Newey there are probably a slew of graduate engineers just turning the crank. Not like everyone in the sport is a genius or the absolute best in their field.

Do they call a F1 season winner a "world champion"? Sure. Who cares? That's like saying that because the winning team of the Superbowl are likewise crowned as "world champions" that it's just a fact of the sporting world that they're all better athletes than say Man Utd or Real Madrid. It has no relevance. We can say F1 is the top of open wheel road racing - which it is - but that's about it.

Back to the demystifying bit - it's not like F1 is some world of cutting edge technology that nobody else outside the bubble of Motorsport Valley in England has a clue how to do. If we want to talk about facts.. it's a fact that F1 has a pretty stringent rule set which does not avail itself to being cutting edge. No active aero or active aero anymore, for example. It's a fact that the R&D budget of a single OEM like Ford is same size or larger than the whole F1 grid combined. It's a fact that there are experts in complex composites fabrication outside of racing that could certainly do a tub, wings, etc. It's a fact there are many engineers with former F1 experience currently living in the US, working in either different racing series or related industries.

So in my mind there's nothing fundamentally stopping Haas F1 from having a respectable entry. IMO it's just a matter of time and dedication - whether they take the time up front to get the right people and not rush / slap it all together, and whether they can commit to at least several years of racing to get a fair shake at it.

No magic to it. Successful organizations in and out of racing all have similar threads.

[stephenwh]

Well, let me offer some alternate perspective here... and I'll try to keep this guided on the topic of the thread. I't not about "putting down" F1 as much as it is bringing it down to Earth and demystifying it. That's why, in my opinion, this is F1 Technical and not F1 Blind Rabid Fandom Forum. This is where we try to be objective.

I stopped reading right there. It is simply ridiculous to call people that have bought into the direction F1 has had to take to survive and the acceptance of change that we have had to go through to remain fans as "Blind Rabid Fans". Everything y'all are writing is predicated on devaluing my opinion and I am just simply not going to stand for it. There is another perspective besides the jaded cynical view, and that is the thing you guys don't like. You use "fanboy" as a hurled insult, and it is completely unfair.

[Lycoming]

Yep - perfect example I think of what Haas will try to do. It makes no sense to have an 'American' team sponsored by a Japanese tech company, for example. Having Budweiser on there could be a great opportunity to grow that brand globally. I know we have it where I live but it's not popular.

Haas needs money to do this. Sponsors will give him that cash - unless he want to bank roll the whole thing himself - which is doubtful and unless you, as an American F1 fan, are happy to see the USA team with 'Dubai Airways' on it - then this matters - IMO.

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking on foreign sponsors/technical partners, as long as they aren't the backbone of your financial support and they don't own the team. I'm not american, but unless you purposely go out of your way to advertise yourself as the american national team (which I don't think Haas is doing), there should be no issue with being sponsored by, say, Emirates.

There should be even less issue with being sponsored by companies like Oxeon, Brembo, Shell, Akebono, etc. who offer technical solutions that may be technically or economically (or both) superior to anything that a stateside company is able to provide or willing to sponsor.

So are you suggesting Haas Automation will be the title sponsor?

If not title sponsor than a major one; an F1 team's machine shop needs ~30 CNC machining centers of various types. I can't imagine Haas would get those from anywhere other than his own company.

I stopped reading right there. It is simply ridiculous to call people that have bought into the direction F1 has had to take to survive and the acceptance of change that we have had to go through to remain fans as "Blind Rabid Fans". Everything y'all are writing is predicated on devaluing my opinion and I am just simply not going to stand for it. There is another perspective besides the jaded cynical view, and that is the thing you guys don't like. You use "fanboy" as a hurled insult, and it is completely unfair.

Calm down, nobody called you specifically a "blind rabid fanboy", though that post certainly won't dissuade people from doing so in the near future. My main issue with you saying "F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport" as though it is an obvious, unalienable, absolute fact is that such a statement is by it's very nature highly subjective and open to debate.

[Moxie]

Back to the demystifying bit - it's not like F1 is some world of cutting edge technology that nobody else outside the bubble of Motorsport Valley in England has a clue how to do. If we want to talk about facts.. it's a fact that F1 has a pretty stringent rule set which does not avail itself to being cutting edge. No active aero or active aero anymore, for example. It's a fact that the R&D budget of a single OEM like Ford is same size or larger than the whole F1 grid combined. It's a fact that there are experts in complex composites fabrication outside of racing that could certainly do a tub, wings, etc. It's a fact there are many engineers with former F1 experience currently living in the US, working in either different racing series or related industries.

So in my mind there's nothing fundamentally stopping Haas F1 from having a respectable entry. IMO it's just a matter of time and dedication - whether they take the time up front to get the right people and not rush / slap it all together, and whether they can commit to at least several years of racing to get a fair shake at it.

No magic to it. Successful organizations in and out of racing all have similar threads.

I realize that your post was in response to stephewh but it also relates to what we discussed earlier. I agree with all that you have written here. Unfortunately, an abundance of F1 talent does not appear to be under the Haas motor racing roof, and I find that worrisome. He has more than a car to build he has an entire F1 program to build.

[Kiril Varbanov]

I'm not sure about Haas, but Romania seems much more viable candidate at this point - http://adamcooperf1.com/2014/06/02/fia- ... 1-project/

[stephenwh]

I'm not sure about Haas, but Romania seems much more viable candidate at this point - http://adamcooperf1.com/2014/06/02/fia- ... 1-project/

This probably deserves its own thread?