2022 Alpine F1 Team

[JPower]

Alpine/Renault have Amazing facilities. They've just recently upgraded them. Think the wind tunnel was completed in 2018.

Again, you don't catch up to teams that have spent $300+ million per year for a decade straight in one year of a budget cap. Renault was not spending on that level.

So no, I don't believe their facilities and institutional knowledge are on par with Mercedes/Ferrari/Red Bull until proven otherwise. If you do have proof they are, then Renault is the most underachieving team in the history of the sport.

Essentially I agree with this. It's part of why I didn't expect Alpine to catch right up to the leaders. Otmar suggest the team is not as efficient as it could be. The lack of upgrades between the test and now they will only have an aero upgrade after the 5th race according to autosport. That's a long time for a car which so badly needs changes imo.

I'm happy to be stunned when Alonso is on pole in Bahrain, but I find it unlikely.

I mean, I'm not saying Alpine can't be championship contenders in the future. Far from it.

I just think that it will take a few years for the budget cap and CFD hour scale to take effect. The same goes for teams in a similar position like Aston and McLaren who I think are in the same boat.

[diffuser]

Again, you don't catch up to teams that have spent $300+ million per year for a decade straight in one year of a budget cap. Renault was not spending on that level.

So no, I don't believe their facilities and institutional knowledge are on par with Mercedes/Ferrari/Red Bull until proven otherwise. If you do have proof they are, then Renault is the most underachieving team in the history of the sport.

I can only tell you what Palmer said on F1 TV yesterday. That's he's seen them and they're amazing.

Institution knowledge is just people and when you have to let go 25% of your work force, that know how goes with them and is free to be shared with everyone and anyone. Also the CAP prevents you from being able to outbid all the other teams for personnel, you can only protect 3 people. Teams like Haas (11 weeks) have literally more than 4 full work weeks in the wind tunnel more than Merc (7 weeks) and RBR(7.5 weeks). In Haas's case, they have employees, that worked for Ferrari last year, working in a Haas section in Maranello. They use the Ferrari wind tunnel. Now Haas suffer from obvious buget constraints but not knowledge.

I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that Alpine is gonna win the constructors this year. I have no clue. I will tell you the odds of them finishing less that the 400 points they finished behind the 2nd place team is very high. Hey they may finish 100 points behind the 2nd place team but only 6th place.

OK, given their amazing facilities on par with the top teams of the past decade, you confirm that Renault has been the most underachieving team in F1 history correct?

And now, all of a sudden, due to one year of the budget cap, they'll be back towards the top after 6-7 years of said underachievement?

Well they've historically had 1/3 to 1/2 the budget of the top 3 teams. They've not been at the front of the midfield (4th) as often as they should have been. I haven't count them but I feel as if they averaged 5th. No different that Ferrari or RBR over the last decade. Those 2 teams have been more or less on par, budget wise, with merc but have finished 2nd or 3ird for the last 8 years.

Understand me, I'm not saying yes or no. Just more likely.

[JPower]

Well they've historically had 1/3 to 1/2 the budget of the top 3 teams. They've not been at the front of the midfield (4th) as often as they should have been. I haven't count them but I feel as if they averaged 5th. No different that Ferrari or RBR over the last decade. Those 2 teams have been more or less on par, budget wise, with merc but have finished 2nd or 3ird for the last 8 years.

Understand me, I'm not saying yes or no. Just more likely.

You just proved my point. Alpine can have great facilities in a vacuum but if they've been spending 50-67% less than the top teams, then its extremely unlikely for them to have the resources and/or quality of resources of the other teams. The results on track bare this out.

[peewon]

Well they've historically had 1/3 to 1/2 the budget of the top 3 teams. They've not been at the front of the midfield (4th) as often as they should have been. I haven't count them but I feel as if they averaged 5th. No different that Ferrari or RBR over the last decade. Those 2 teams have been more or less on par, budget wise, with merc but have finished 2nd or 3ird for the last 8 years.

Understand me, I'm not saying yes or no. Just more likely.

You just proved my point. Alpine can have great facilities in a vacuum but if they've been spending 50-67% less than the top teams, then its extremely unlikely for them to have the resources and/or quality of resources of the other teams. The results on track bare this out.

Their technical recruitment, even compared to Aston Martin and Mclaren has been underwhelming. Constant changes in hierarchy and some less than flattering opinions on Rossi from the paddock doesn't provide much basis for optimism. However, the true effects of new financial regs wont be known for at least 2-3 years.

[JordanMugen]

You can't catch up to team that's spent $300+ million a year for a decade within one year.

Renault have been back in Formula One as a constructor since 2016 though. I don't understand why the five year plan to contend for the title by 2020 didn't progress as planned?

Cyril Abiteboul:

Red Bull took five years, Mercedes as well. I would say our plan is ambitious.

I can assure you that Viry has the people and the money.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2016/02/05 ... velopment/

Bob Bell:

If you look at it historically, it took Renault five years from when they bought Benetton to win their first championship, it took Mercedes five years from buying Brawn to win their first championship, [and] it took Red Bull five years from buying Jaguar to win a first championship.

For me, a five year time window from where we are now to winning a championship is not unrealistic. We’d like to better that and we will do all that we can to better that, but that’s not an unrealistic time frame.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bob- ... c/3221283/

Was it due to neglect of facility investment by GENII between 2010 & 2015 leaving Enstone with outdated facilities? Taking more than three years to build new facilities seems excessive though. Shouldn't Renault have had a new wind tunnel, an AVL dyno etc by early 2019 at the latest?

Similarly there were significant delays on Viry introducing a split turbo power unit (introduced now in 2022), while Honda introduced it already in 2017, so why was that? Abiteboul noted Viry already having all the people and money required to, presumably, build the best power unit on the grid.

Alpine/Renault have Amazing facilities. They've just recently upgraded them. Think the wind tunnel was completed in 2018.

Great stuff!

Renault was not spending on that level.

Are they are in Formula One to win or not?

If they are happy to just compete and promote the Alpine brand why not just say so up front? It seems Alonso was expecting a WDC-contending car, but that doesn't necessary seem to be the case yet -- although it could still be an Alpine front row lockout in Bahrain.

As an example, even if Mercedes have failed and produced a car that with poor handling traits (however unlikely that is), at least it is clear that have spared no effort to attempt to build the fastest car possible. Red Bull Racing similarly tend to push every rule to the limit, even if that was fairly unsuccessful until 2021. Ferrari similarly were so determined to win, they allegedly cheated certain fuel flow regulations in 2019.

Have Alpine shown the same single-minded approach to trying to win?

I do have a lot of faith in Pat Fry, he is a very good engineer. So I guess, even if the Alpine A522 is not a Brawn out of the box, we'll see continual improvements to it.

Yours truly (Trulli),
Frustrated Ricciardo fan

PS. For whatever reason, perhaps wrongly, it seems that Ricciardo lost faith in the project, however Alonso clearly saw enough promising results in the wind tunnel and on the engine test bench.

[Redragon]

You can't catch up to team that's spent $300+ million a year for a decade within one year.

Renault have been back in Formula One as a constructor since 2016 though. I don't understand why the five year plan to contend for the title by 2020 didn't progress as planned?

Cyril Abiteboul:

Red Bull took five years, Mercedes as well. I would say our plan is ambitious.

I can assure you that Viry has the people and the money.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2016/02/05 ... velopment/

Bob Bell:

If you look at it historically, it took Renault five years from when they bought Benetton to win their first championship, it took Mercedes five years from buying Brawn to win their first championship, [and] it took Red Bull five years from buying Jaguar to win a first championship.

For me, a five year time window from where we are now to winning a championship is not unrealistic. We’d like to better that and we will do all that we can to better that, but that’s not an unrealistic time frame.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bob- ... c/3221283/

Was it due to neglect of facility investment by GENII between 2010 & 2015 leaving Enstone with outdated facilities? Taking more than three years to build new facilities seems excessive though. Shouldn't Renault have had a new wind tunnel, an AVL dyno etc by early 2019 at the latest?

Similarly there were significant delays on Viry introducing a split turbo power unit (introduced now in 2022), while Honda introduced it already in 2017, so why was that? Abiteboul noted Viry already having all the people and money required to, presumably, build the best power unit on the grid.

Alpine/Renault have Amazing facilities. They've just recently upgraded them. Think the wind tunnel was completed in 2018.

Great stuff!

Renault was not spending on that level.

Are they are in Formula One to win or not?

If they are happy to just compete and promote the Alpine brand why not just say so up front? It seems Alonso was expecting a WDC-contending car, but that doesn't necessary seem to be the case yet -- although it could still be an Alpine front row lockout in Bahrain.

As an example, even if Mercedes have failed and produced a car that with poor handling traits (however unlikely that is), at least it is clear that have spared no effort to attempt to build the fastest car possible. Red Bull Racing similarly tend to push every rule to the limit, even if that was fairly unsuccessful until 2021. Ferrari similarly were so determined to win, they allegedly cheated certain fuel flow regulations in 2019.

Have Alpine shown the same single-minded approach to trying to win?

I do have a lot of faith in Pat Fry, he is a very good engineer. So I guess, even if the Alpine A522 is not a Brawn out of the box, we'll see continual improvements to it.

Yours truly (Trulli),
Frustrated Ricciardo fan

PS. For whatever reason, perhaps wrongly, it seems that Ricciardo lost faith in the project, however Alonso clearly saw enough promising results in the wind tunnel and on the engine test bench.

Riccardo left because thought has more chances with Mclaren to win asap as Alpine was not going to develop until the rules changes, specially when your are already 30 at the time. At least that is my impression.

[diffuser]

Well they've historically had 1/3 to 1/2 the budget of the top 3 teams. They've not been at the front of the midfield (4th) as often as they should have been. I haven't count them but I feel as if they averaged 5th. No different that Ferrari or RBR over the last decade. Those 2 teams have been more or less on par, budget wise, with merc but have finished 2nd or 3ird for the last 8 years.

Understand me, I'm not saying yes or no. Just more likely.

You just proved my point. Alpine can have great facilities in a vacuum but if they've been spending 50-67% less than the top teams, then its extremely unlikely for them to have the resources and/or quality of resources of the other teams. The results on track bare this out.

Their technical recruitment, even compared to Aston Martin and Mclaren has been underwhelming. Constant changes in hierarchy and some less than flattering opinions on Rossi from the paddock doesn't provide much basis for optimism. However, the true effects of new financial regs wont be known for at least 2-3 years.

When we're talking budget and CAP, we're not talking about brick and mortar. With Alpine having less than 400 hrs of alotted wind tunnel time by F1, I'm sure the wind tunnel is being used by others and makes money. The same is probably true about other equipment it has in the factory.

I'm not going to be labour this point cause I have never been to any of these factories. The "amazing" statement isn't from me, nor is it very informative in the sense of comparisons to others. I have that piece of information and if you google Renault and wind tunnel you'll find that the made some changes early 2011 or 2012 going from 50% to 60% then in 2019, Another upgrade.

"The team has faced difficulties getting on top of the aero characteristics of its car, with the RS.19 having not produced the kind of step forward that had been hoped for.

Renault F1's managing director Cyril Abiteboul said what the team learned about the car in the first half of the year prompted it to decide it needed to improve its Enstone windtunnel, which meant putting it out of action for nearly one month."

I presume the windtunnel does what they need it to do now.

[Postmoe]

Well they've historically had 1/3 to 1/2 the budget of the top 3 teams. They've not been at the front of the midfield (4th) as often as they should have been. I haven't count them but I feel as if they averaged 5th. No different that Ferrari or RBR over the last decade. Those 2 teams have been more or less on par, budget wise, with merc but have finished 2nd or 3ird for the last 8 years.

Understand me, I'm not saying yes or no. Just more likely.

You just proved my point. Alpine can have great facilities in a vacuum but if they've been spending 50-67% less than the top teams, then its extremely unlikely for them to have the resources and/or quality of resources of the other teams. The results on track bare this out.

Man, you should consider including opex and capex in your analysis.

[Kamel]

Surprised that most F1 community and especially F1 experts don't believe in Alpine's speed. Maybe they're better at reading telemetry data and race sim, i dunno..
Nevertheless Alan Permane is positive. I hope the A522 will have a racing pace and new items will work well

[diffuser]

Think he's refering to

Alpine did not go for glory in Bahrain
Permane revealed the team did not go for low-fuel glory runs, revealing the team may have some work to do to get the car in a proper performance window for qualifying, and also added that an upgrade package will be brought to the A522 in time for the Bahrain season opener.

“We didn’t put qualifying fuel, but low fuel,” he revealed. “When you start to get used to that level of grip and speed you find new problems. I wouldn’t say the drivers are in ecstasy and expect to make pole, but I hope we are in the fight, in Q3.

“We have evolutions, parts of the floor, for Bahrain. There is a comprehensive plan for the fourth or fifth race (Miami or Barcelona), when the first big package of upgrades will arrive.

“But I’m sure we will have new things for every race,” Permane concluded.


https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/03/14 ... r-is-fast/

[dren]

I am expecting the Alpine to be a bit of a surprise. I expect they will have some nagging issues with the PU unless they've been developing the split turbo along side their old PU for the last few years.

[Spoutnik]

Well they've historically had 1/3 to 1/2 the budget of the top 3 teams. They've not been at the front of the midfield (4th) as often as they should have been. I haven't count them but I feel as if they averaged 5th. No different that Ferrari or RBR over the last decade. Those 2 teams have been more or less on par, budget wise, with merc but have finished 2nd or 3ird for the last 8 years.

Understand me, I'm not saying yes or no. Just more likely.

You just proved my point. Alpine can have great facilities in a vacuum but if they've been spending 50-67% less than the top teams, then its extremely unlikely for them to have the resources and/or quality of resources of the other teams. The results on track bare this out.

Their technical recruitment, even compared to Aston Martin and Mclaren has been underwhelming. Constant changes in hierarchy and some less than flattering opinions on Rossi from the paddock doesn't provide much basis for optimism. However, the true effects of new financial regs wont be known for at least 2-3 years.

Can you develop please ? I heard many contrasting things about him.

[Kamel]

Race simulation pace by F1.com.
Your thoughts?

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 4QeE8.html

[GoranF1]

Alonso "is fast"
https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/03/14 ... r-is-fast/

[TNTHead]

https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fo ... /image.png
Race simulation pace by F1.com.
Your thoughts?

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 4QeE8.html

To take this with a very large pinch of salt.

Too many unknown variables:
1) fuel levels during testing
2) engine modes during testing
3) the development run from testing to Q3 next weekend
4) data crunching and understanding how to set up the car