Monaco 2014 - Hamilton wanted immediate pitstop

[Rodzilla]

What are you trying to prove RodZilla?

that the hamilton pitstop plan would not work

actually i have already proven it, you just dont know it yet

[Bomber_Pilot]

@10:40

http://vimeo.com/channels/613916/66697829

[George-Jung]

@10:40

http://vimeo.com/channels/613916/66697829

Always great to watch the Graham Norton show... but whats got it to do with the topic?

[elf341]

It was on Sky interview with Johnny Herbert and Damon Hill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w495YDvYxg

Around the 1 min mark. Perhaps I am stretching an interpretation of exactly what he said, but I don't think it's clear either way.

Here's a transcription:

Damon Hill: But I mean it's always a possibility, isn't it, that Lewis could've just said "I'm coming in the pits", and you would have changed his tires, right? You would've given him a new set of tires?
Toto Wolff: No. No, it's not the way it happens with us. That a driver doesn't make the call himself and decides when he comes in - he's being called in.

[SiLo]

It was on Sky interview with Johnny Herbert and Damon Hill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w495YDvYxg

Around the 1 min mark. Perhaps I am stretching an interpretation of exactly what he said, but I don't think it's clear either way.

Here's a transcription:

Damon Hill: But I mean it's always a possibility, isn't it, that Lewis could've just said "I'm coming in the pits", and you would have changed his tires, right? You would've given him a new set of tires?
Toto Wolff: No. No, it's not the way it happens with us. That a driver doesn't make the call himself and decides when he comes in - he's being called in.

Guess they don't want to drivers to screw it up. But conversely they won't ever benefit from a "Jenson" moment.

[dans79]

Sounds like micro managing to me!

[Bomber_Pilot]

@10:40

http://vimeo.com/channels/613916/66697829

Always great to watch the Graham Norton show... but whats got it to do with the topic?

I've put the link into this topic, because at 10min40sec he mentions that he is not a good loser.
EDIT: mods are free to move it to a different topic, or delete the post.

[Sevach]

Well, just forget the positons they were during the races this season and you can ask yourself the question is this a good and fair strategy of Mercedes. With such a big gap between their drivers and the rest of the field, why can't they undercut each other, why can't they use different tactics and strategies? Why is the leader given an advantage? Is that a fair fight? I think when Hamilton is P2, he disagrees and when Nico is P2, he disagrees.

Absolutely, it makes sure that the driver behind on the track remains behind, if he wants the position he will have to do it the hard way.

Like it or not Mercedes is one team, when Nico's side of the garage make a call Lewis side is immediatly aware of that, the pit stop hasn't even happened yet and the "opposing" team already knows of it.
They can't make these calls on the fly because then the other driver, the one that is leading, will suddenly want the same.

Perhaps they could/should allow big changes like Rosberg going for 3 stops in Barcelona and Hamilton going for 2 in Monaco, but simply allowing the guy to pit one lap before his rival so he can gain the position on the pits? No.

[Burgess]

@10:40

http://vimeo.com/channels/613916/66697829

Always great to watch the Graham Norton show... but whats got it to do with the topic?

I've put the link into this topic, because at 10min40sec he mentions that he is not a good loser.
EDIT: mods are free to move it to a different topic, or delete the post.

No f1 driver is a good loser.

[Manoah2u]

Nice analysis using times and logic, guys.
But aren't we getting answers to the wrong question, especially Lewis? Either he is willing to follow the team's wishes or he isn't. If he is, they called to give Rosberg (the driver ahead) priority, which probably reflects rules of engagement accepted by all parties involved.
If he is not willing to follow the team's wishes, then he was behind in track, meaning that he had the chance to physically duck in to the pits after Rosberg had passed them. In that case (and with all the time he imagines gaining), the mechanics would have gotten tires ready for him, which even if cold, would do fine once the safety car was out. And (with the time gain he is imagining) he would likely have won the race. And he would have had 2007 all over again.

So Hamilton is asking whether he could have won the race. I think he should be asking whether he wanted to win the race like this. Because if pitting had been the right call, then the team would have wanted it to make the right call, but for Rosberg.

That's a good point. I think we are however missing something. From my impression, it wasn't necessarely about "winning the race by doing an undercut" - in fact, I personally think the undercut was non-existant at Monaco, hence why I'm disappointed the safety car ruined what could possibly been a chance for Lewis to get ahead under normal pitting circumstances - but because he wanted to avoid the scenario he had last year when the safety car made him lose places to Redbull by losing time in the pits.

I think the logic was - "guys, there was an accident - is Nico pitting? If he isn't, bring me in now.". I don't think he was trying to get an first pit over Nico, but wanted to avoid doing an extra lap and then lose time behind his team-mate in the pits. Luckily, the gap between him and Raikkoennen was so big, that even despite the holdup, he didn't lose position. At the same time, he probably was left wondering why Nico didn't pit at the first instance and why the team didn't allow him pitting instead. In hindsight, as the analysis shows, he would have been worse off indeed, so I guess it's a non-issue in the end.

+1 finally someone else understood what I was saying previously in the thread
If there was a situation of stacking up he would have lost his second place to someone else, like last year
That is why he was so agitated

Here is what I wrote before

Many of you are immediately ready to bash Lewis, just understand what happened

He said he knew there will be a safety car for that crash as they both passed the crashed car....Lewis wanted to pit immediately but they couldn't do it coz Nico gets choice as he is leading
All he is implying is Nico or team didn't call to come into pits immediately as the second time they all stacked up and could have lost lewis second place to Ricardo ...which was pretty much the risk In stacking up (similar to what happened to Schumacher at turkey 2006)

+2.

and a little bit more.....are we argueing over 25 secs? seriously? IF Hamilton would have pitted, straight away, before safety car - not delving into any 'fair play' stuff -, then he would have pitted before rosberg did. rosberg still had to pit,- that would have resulted an easy overtake because there is no way rosberg could grow enough of a gap for a full pitstop without losing position.

Whether Rosberg would have pitted during the SC period, or afterwards is irrelevant. If hamilton sneaked into the pits, he would have ended up close enough behind rosberg (the cars in front from p5 would still have to pit, too) that he would have overtaken him = equal to winning.

As for the 'fair play policy' i think it's a load of BS about 'first call' on pitstop. Lets' look at it like this: one driver is on a 2-stop strategy, the other driver on a 1-stop. the 1-stop driver is in front. Does the 2-stop driver need to wait for the 1-stop driver to take a pit finally? offcourse not. With that, i think the entire 'pit call' idea is bs and a huge blow to tactical racing. If the other driver desides to pit, their call. He can gain with that he can lose with that. It's all part of the game.

As for the response of toto wolff on hill's question about 'just coming in' - rubbish too. No doubt they have that policy, hamilton sort off admitted that in the post-race interview anyway, but in reality, no way ever, ever, ever would the team
leave hamilton out in the cold if he'd park his car into the pit for a change. There would be some hefty discussions and words afterwards, but that's all part of the game. You just grab the opportunity and deal with the aftermath later. Perhaps you can't do it another time again, but that doesn't matter for that moment.

in the end hamilton made a mistake by not coming in. Hamilton has brains, he could have used them to steer into the pits regardless of anyone's opinion or plan. Alonso would have. I think vettel would have, too. Senna surely would have, and Prost even more. Hamilton didn't seize the opportunity that was handed to him, and that's just that.

Rosberg just as well could have dived into the pits straight away. Hamilton saw that and regretted directly that he didn't go in instead. but it was in the past already.

So in the end, i think Hamilton shouldn't *b#tch* the way he did/does about the pitstop stuff. It's matter of seconds and both parties made mistakes. Learn from it and move on.

[Rodzilla]

+2.

and a little bit more.....are we argueing over 25 secs? seriously? IF Hamilton would have pitted, straight away, before safety car - not delving into any 'fair play' stuff -, then he would have pitted before rosberg did. rosberg still had to pit,- that would have resulted an easy overtake because there is no way rosberg could grow enough of a gap for a full pitstop without losing position.

Whether Rosberg would have pitted during the SC period, or afterwards is irrelevant. If hamilton sneaked into the pits, he would have ended up close enough behind rosberg (the cars in front from p5 would still have to pit, too) that he would have overtaken him = equal to winning

no way Rosberg could grow the gap for a full pitstop? thats an interesting and unexpected theory lol

no of course he wouldnt need to grow a gap he would have one already, think about it, you are missing some knowledge either about how F1 works in general or about this situation, maybe that you think the safety car immediately picked up rosberg?

[bill shoe]

I favor decisions by drivers and their individual strategists rather than decisions by the overall team where they attempt to control the relative outcome of their two drivers. One advantage of the individual driver approach is that drivers have to put up or shut up. Alternately, if the team takes the decision away from the driver then every driver will feel like a victim of every call. And we get to hear more victim-whining from the drivers rather than getting on with the free and unrestricted competition on the track.

I suppose this perspective doesn't matter to the team, but it matters to me as a fan. Lewis is great as a driver and not so great as a professional complainer.

EDIT- ...and yes I see the irony that I'm complaining.

[Stradivarius]

I think it is worth emphasizing that the main point Rodzilla is making has nothing to do with hindsight. He is drawing a conclusion based on a perfectly predictable procedure which will always apply under the current rules. If there is an accident at the next race and the drivers suspect there will be a safety car, they will have nothing to gain by coming into the pits before the safety car is deployed. As Rodzilla has already argued, they will loose by doing so because they will spend less time running at full racing speed and more time running at limited speed.

There may be a small exception for the race leader and the drivers close behind him: There is a possibility that the safety car will be deployed right in front of the race leader. If that happens, he will loose if he hasn't made his stop yet. In Monaco, if Hamilton had pitted immediately, as he wanted, and the safety car had been deployed before Rosberg reached the pit exit, then Hamilton would have won the race because he would have been right behind Rosberg by the end of his outlap. I think, however, that the team is able to predict the deployment of the safety car, if they pay attention, so that they can avoid ending up behind it right away.

[Shaddock]

I've been having a think about the undercut and it might of worked.

When Lewis and Nico arrived at the pit entrance on the lap of the crash there was very little gap between them, lets say 1 second. Lewis tells the pits he ran over some of Sutil's front wing and he's think he's got a puncture and dives into the pits.

Lets add 25 seconds for the pit stop to the original 1s gap to Nico bringing it to 26s on the road. With Nico having to make a pit stop the actual gap to make up during the undercut is only 1 second. The longer Lewis can stay out of the without the SC coming out the better, but when it does then all cars are restricted to I think a 140% lap time delta. The SC came our shortly after Lewis would have exited the pits, but this would not necessarily have made much difference as the cars would then all be traveling at the same speed back to the pits and the relative gaps would have been maintained. (assuming no intentional blocking)

I think there are two ways in which Lewis could have made the 1 second up; (I'm going to assume he didn't close all of the 1s gap before the SC as there wasn't long enough) One is on the main straight where sector 3 ends and sector 1 starts. Do the first part of sector one flat out, past the pit exit (well below the 140% lap target) then back right off as you head up the hill to bring your sector average back up to 140% but gaining track position in the process.

The other way I see it happening is that the pit lane was going to the get busy, and it would only take a car coming past Nico in his box when he comes off the jacks to loose the 1s advantage.

Do you take a safe second place or do you gamble - Lewis wanted to throw the dice.

[mika vs michael]

Can anyone please inform me when that rule about leading driver pitting first was introduced? Lewis has beaten Nico 4 straight times and it would have been five out of 6 races...so if I were Lewis I would enter the pits whenever I wanted. Sorry but I don't buy that policy of leading driver. If Ferrari and Redbull had equally fast cars to Merc, there would be no leading driver picking anything...it would be a battle between Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton...Mercedes has the luxury to race on a level of it own and impose such things. but it may not last more than a year.