2014 Malaysian Grand Prix - Sepang

[myurr]

By asserting RedBull's aero/chassis is the best, no one is saying that Merc's is not good. It's plain as day that Merc's is good, but I'm confident than RedBull's is better.

That depends how you quantify better - if you said it would be a couple of tenths per lap quicker if all else were equal then I'd probably agree that this was plausible. If you claim half a second or more then I'd posit that were implausible.

Sure there are lots of column inches having a hard on over Red Bull's chassis and how great it must be. But equally many of those columns were predicting after Friday free practice that Red Bull was closing in on Mercedes in performance terms. In the very next practice session we saw that wasn't the case. Straight line speed is a very poor indicator given the two different aero solutions and approaches, as we've seen in past years - look at the Torro Rosso's straight line speed for example, in FP3 he was right there with the Mercs.

There was a pattern last year whereby Red Bull, Ferrari and especially McLaren all had better Friday performance relative to Mercedes than on Saturday. At the time I put this down to their simulators giving them a better base line setup and Merc needing real world data to set up their FRIC system accurately, compounded with running on lower engine settings. Given the night and day difference in tyre usage from Friday to the race for Mercedes I would guess that this still holds some truth.

I genuinely believe that all else being equal Mercedes would be broadly up there with Red Bull and that it would ebb and flow between them from circuit to circuit. That Renault engine isn't anywhere near as bad now as people made out - that is evident from Torro Rosso's straight line speed and the launch from the grid that RBR had relative to the Ferrari. They may be having to dial it down for large parts of the race for reliability, and its unrefined software may be costing them a bit of drivability, but when they push it's a solid performer yet Mercedes still have a huge advantage in F1 terms.

[Powershift]

Fred onboard start.
* Ricci has got some balls. =D>
* Nico almost lost it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImPVtKa00hw

Good start from the Ferrari until 100kph, Fernando shifts to the second gear and then it starts to make a really weird sound.. like its hitting max rev or something, anyway Alonso lost a lot of time in second gear.

What you hear is wheelspin, and it is happening at 100 klicks, right into 2nd gear, but more importantly 100 klicks is when the KERS kicks in, so it seems Ferrari is dumping in too much KERS at the start and inducing wheelspin, last week they had no KERS at the start, but they should still have known they were inducing wheelspin from their practice starts, or maybe the tires got really cold sitting on the grid.

[Kiril Varbanov]

New poll was just ran - you can now select your driver of the day - http://www.f1technical.net/poll/index.php?dispid=269

[Juzh]

That Renault engine isn't anywhere near as bad now as people made out - that is evident from Torro Rosso's straight line speed and the launch from the grid that RBR had relative to the Ferrari.

You're right, it's even worse than people make it out to be. The only proper renault engine benchmark is RB (torro rosso +1 lap is not a representative measure) and it sucked pretty hard in that car.
Rosberg even overslept the start by a tiny bit, got a worse launch than vettel, but still pulled along and past him once up to 3rd gear with no problems. That is the power of power.

[Jef Patat]

That Renault engine isn't anywhere near as bad now as people made out - that is evident from Torro Rosso's straight line speed and the launch from the grid that RBR had relative to the Ferrari.

You're right, it's even worse than people make it out to be. The only proper renault engine benchmark is RB (torro rosso +1 lap is not a representative measure) and it sucked pretty hard in that car.
Rosberg even overslept the start by a tiny bit, got a worse launch than vettel, but still pulled along and past him once up to 3rd gear with no problems. That is the power of power.

or different gearing, different ERS, different ...
I follow you to some extend in your reasoning, but not all the way.

[myurr]

That Renault engine isn't anywhere near as bad now as people made out - that is evident from Torro Rosso's straight line speed and the launch from the grid that RBR had relative to the Ferrari.

You're right, it's even worse than people make it out to be. The only proper renault engine benchmark is RB (torro rosso +1 lap is not a representative measure) and it sucked pretty hard in that car.
Rosberg even overslept the start by a tiny bit, got a worse launch than vettel, but still pulled along and past him once up to 3rd gear with no problems. That is the power of power.

That point you're ignoring is that people point to Red Bull's straight line speed as being indicative of Renault's power deficit, but Torro Rosso are as fast as Mercedes in a straight line and Red Bull have always preferred downforce over straight line speed. Vettel got no worse a launch than Alonso, and Ferrari have historically had a fast starting car, so perhaps the Ferrari engine is an absolute dog as well?

More often than not the Mercedes were matching Red Bull in S2 which was supposed to play to Red Bulls strengths and be pretty neutral in regards to engine power. That is despite Red Bull clearly running more drag and therefore downforce. That Mercedes is a damn fine chassis with a very very good aero package. I have no doubt they'd be right up there with Red Bull even with engine parity.

[Juzh]

That Renault engine isn't anywhere near as bad now as people made out - that is evident from Torro Rosso's straight line speed and the launch from the grid that RBR had relative to the Ferrari.

You're right, it's even worse than people make it out to be. The only proper renault engine benchmark is RB (torro rosso +1 lap is not a representative measure) and it sucked pretty hard in that car.
Rosberg even overslept the start by a tiny bit, got a worse launch than vettel, but still pulled along and past him once up to 3rd gear with no problems. That is the power of power.

or different gearing, different ERS, different ...
I follow you to some extend in your reasoning, but not all the way.

Why would any car not run maximum ERS and ICE mode off the line? You can lose the most there, so no reason not do so. If they couldn't run max power then that's just another renault PU deficiency.
And for the love of god, would you please stop mentioning gears already? They have next to no impact on acceleration this year.

[myurr]

Why would any car not run maximum ERS and ICE mode off the line? You can lose the most there, so no reason not do so. If they couldn't run max power then that's just another renault PU deficiency.

Because they're grip limited.

[Jef Patat]

Don't know if it has been posted, just encountered this on twitter, haven't verified https://twitter.com/piusgasso/status/449860505986162688

[Juzh]

That Renault engine isn't anywhere near as bad now as people made out - that is evident from Torro Rosso's straight line speed and the launch from the grid that RBR had relative to the Ferrari.

You're right, it's even worse than people make it out to be. The only proper renault engine benchmark is RB (torro rosso +1 lap is not a representative measure) and it sucked pretty hard in that car.
Rosberg even overslept the start by a tiny bit, got a worse launch than vettel, but still pulled along and past him once up to 3rd gear with no problems. That is the power of power.

That point you're ignoring is that people point to Red Bull's straight line speed as being indicative of Renault's power deficit, but Torro Rosso are as fast as Mercedes in a straight line and Red Bull have always preferred downforce over straight line speed. Vettel got no worse a launch than Alonso, and Ferrari have historically had a fast starting car, so perhaps the Ferrari engine is an absolute dog as well?

More often than not the Mercedes were matching Red Bull in S2 which was supposed to play to Red Bulls strengths and be pretty neutral in regards to engine power. That is despite Red Bull clearly running more drag and therefore downforce. That Mercedes is a damn fine chassis with a very very good aero package. I have no doubt they'd be right up there with Red Bull even with engine parity.

As I said, a car which finished a lap down is not to be taken as a measure of performance. For all we know they ran low DF setup which was then totally uncompetitive in the race. Even so, if renault is indeed capable of chucking out the same peak power as mercedes, it can only do so once in a race weekend it seems, because over the course of the race kvyat was recording the same speeds in speed traps as vettel did up front.

[Juzh]

Why would any car not run maximum ERS and ICE mode off the line? You can lose the most there, so no reason not do so. If they couldn't run max power then that's just another renault PU deficiency.

Because they're grip limited.

They're not grip limited at 180+.

[myurr]

As I said, a car which finished a lap down is not to be taken as a measure of performance. For all we know they ran low DF setup which was then totally uncompetitive in the race. Even so, if renault is indeed capable of chucking out the same peak power as mercedes, it can only do so once in a race weekend it seems, because over the course of the race kvyat was recording the same speeds in speed traps as vettel did up front.

It is *a* measure of performance. Interestingly the gap between Hamilton and Massa's fastest laps is within a tenth or so of the gap between Vettel and Kvyat, in a car so bad you don't think it's a representative measure. But it's all down to the engine...

As for being grip limited they weren't going 180+ in the comparison being discussed and they were on cold tyres. No one would have been 100% throttle at max revs down the straight at the start without getting wheelspin, even in 4th or 5th gear.

[Juzh]

Whatever floats your boat. I'm done arguing the most obvious thing in F1.

[jz11]

That point you're ignoring is that people point to Red Bull's straight line speed as being indicative of Renault's power deficit, but Torro Rosso are as fast as Mercedes in a straight line and Red Bull have always preferred downforce over straight line speed. Vettel got no worse a launch than Alonso, and Ferrari have historically had a fast starting car, so perhaps the Ferrari engine is an absolute dog as well?

More often than not the Mercedes were matching Red Bull in S2 which was supposed to play to Red Bulls strengths and be pretty neutral in regards to engine power. That is despite Red Bull clearly running more drag and therefore downforce. That Mercedes is a damn fine chassis with a very very good aero package. I have no doubt they'd be right up there with Red Bull even with engine parity.

as people mentioned before, max power output is not the only thing that will affect the top speed, if you have nice and steady power delivery at the corner exit, it will compliment good chassis and will make the car drive ok, but if you have erratic power output during exit, driver will not have the confidence to go on the gas as early and as hard as mercedes factory drivers can, and thus make the car look slow even if it was in low downforce/drag setup

my guess is that RB, being low on IC engine hp, may be running sort of a compromise between low downforce/drag aero and their "normal" setup (that would be fastest during S2), making the car look "average", this gives the car some speed on the straight, to have the ability to maybe do an overtake or defend easier, but compromises the their usual strengths - cornering and doesn't take full advantage of the downforce they might have, so they might as well have the best aero and chassis, but they simply cannot utilize it to the full extent because the low engine power and PU power delivery smoothness doesn't allow it yet - so, yes, the PU is very important

lets wait for them to stop complain about low power of the renault engine and then see what they will complain about next, my guess - they won't, the car will begin to fly

[iotar__]

How can I get a lap chant of Malaysian GP? Like that:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A8kZoHuCEAAlMOs.jpg:large

http://www.fia.com
http://en.mclarenf-1.com has similar
Re-watched: Ricciardo had a very nice start, kept his head, couple of times v. good positioning behind Rosberg. Then second time this season RB takes risks that don't make sense. Their knack for not attaching Australian drivers wheels properly is the reason for such penalty in the first place. Deja vu.
Hulkenberg/Raikkonen fanboyism of commentators is nauseating. Overselling and excuses for everything.
I don't understand other penalties at all. Magn-Raik was run of the mill incident, I remember dozen of those in 2012-2013 with no reaction at all, what about Alonso-Kvyat? Bianchi's even worse - how the hell Raikkonen and Di Resta weren't penalised in Monza 2013 then? I'm not buying - new 5 s penalty answer. Let's use them as a benchmark for consistency in 2014, prediction: zero consistency.