2018 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 9-11 November

[turbof1]

Anyone else hell bent on father idioms?[/i]

You seem to be taking this semi personally Turbo.

Oh sure, people might find out the secret I am Verstappen's half brother .
(#sarcasm)

[Phil]

EDIT:

Adding to my post about my opinion that Max was not fully aware of what was happening [that bachmarkers are allowed to unlap); here is the press conference:



I'll quote:

Max: "I got taken out in turn 2, in the lead. I think the penalty says enough. If the stewards give him a penalty, I think, you know who is wrong in that situation. Of course you can easily say afterwards that I have much more to lose than him, but i am just trying to do my race and suddenly a backmarker is trying to race you and they are just taking stupid risk, you know, diving up the inside, but what can you do about it."


It always takes two to tangle. Why was he racing Ocon? Why was he defending his position in the first place (into T1), when he went to the inside?

[Sieper]

He knows they are of course allowed. He just honoustly did not expect Ocon to really go and fight him even into turn 2 as he was fended off. Even If this was a fight for position then Ocon did not made the move stick, but Ocon was not fighting for position, he was fighting to unlap. Which is totally out of the question.

The real question is why was Ocon fighting to unlap, he had a 1.2 second pace deficit compared to the front runners, the McLaren open race data is quite clear. If you go full gas on supersofts like he did they overheat in 3 laps tops. He would have Been able to stay in front of Max for 1 or 2 laps If that move worked. It would have cost Max time (twice) and tires but Ocon had nothing to gain (except that fact).

[Phil]

I'm sorry, but "battling with a backmarker" does make me question if he knew what was allowed or not. If he had known that backmarkers are allowed to unlap themselves, one would assume he wouldn't have defended his position in the first place. Ocon wasn't suddenly there, he was closing in over 2 laps and made a few moves before signalling that he was faster and was being held up (watch Ocon's onboard, linked in this very thread earlier).

And as for the overall pace deficit of the Force-India, not relevant sorry. Cars that are on more stops or differing strategies can legitimaly be faster during the race at some point or another in pure lap-pace. Their strategy relies on it. The front runners will drive just fast enough as their strategy dictates. Ocon was on an entirely different strategy in a different part of the race and at that point, was clearly and demonstrably faster.

People can argue all they want if they think it's right or not that backmarkers are allowed to unlap themselves or not (there's actually a poll/separate topic for it), but at the moment, backmarkers are allowed to. So, you think Ocon was in the right or not to unlap is actually irrelevant.

[bill shoe]

I don't say this as a comment favoring Max or Ocon, but I think there's no possibility that Max didn't know Ocon was there (because both cars were absolutely equal at one point through the turn 1/2 complex).

This reminds me of the hard-fought 2004 Monza race where Schumacher raced Montoya very aggressively. In the post-race press conference Schumacher claimed he didn't know Montoya was next to him through a turn. The video of that incident was replaying in the press room and Montoya started sarcastically narrating how Schumacher couldn't see him even though Montoya was slightly ahead at one point. The entire room cracked up laughing.

Link for old time's sake-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqr9U4u2j7w

Just to show I'm being fair here: At least the Schumacher-Montoya fight was for the lead.

[Just_a_fan]

Look where Ocon contacts Max and it shows that Max was the one ahead by almost a whole car length. And since when does 16th battle with the leader for any reason?
Y'all seem to think Max should have just let Ocon go. I say just the opposite. Why didn't Ocon let Max go then get on with his race?
Max had a huge overlap on Ocon and no one would expect him to try to dive for the inside. No race driver would expect Ocon to try that.

Letting Ocon go by would have cost him nothing and risked nothing. It was the sensible, low risk course of action. It doesn't matter whether Ocon should or should not have been trying to unlap himself. What mattered was staying out of trouble and taking the win. A mature driver would know that and stay out of Ocon's way.

A 72-win, 5-time World Champion explained that simply enough in the cool down room. The 5-win, no title kid doesn't accept that.

Who loses out in all of this? It isn't Ocon or anyone else. Just Max.

Maybe one day he'll figure it out.

[foxmulder_ms]

I will remember only one thing from this race and that is some stewards are idiots or corrupt. I cannot believe they give a penalty to Ocon. They made half of the passes in Brazil illegal. LOL.

[Manoah2u]

@phil,

the thing is simple.

Ocon was FIGHTING max to unlap himself from 2 laps. that is just complete insanity.
It doesn't matter if he could unlap himself, whether he was fighter, by a margin or by a load.

he FOUGHT Max, and that is unacceptable for a backmarker.
he had NO fight with Max, but made it into one.

If he had to fight max, he wasn't fast enough to overtake him. it was not for position.

the backmarkers always complain how they need to move aside and endanger their own position by doing so,
instead, what does he think now? that a P1 driver needs to move aside for a p18 driver? how would that affect Max' race?!
it's total insanity!

furthermore, Ocon's dive into the first corner was really over the top. He carried way too much speed into that corner, took it wide, then did not budge whilst
it was not for position at all! even IF max would have left him space (which he did not think he should because any driver with IQ more than two fingers, would have
not sent one inside), then in the corner following turn 2 would have seen him on the outside again and not being able to pass max.

it is total madness what ocon did, but it's worse that he blames Max immediately after that with his arrogant and stupid answer on how it everybody could see what happened,
like he has no blame, then gets penalized rightfully so, also indicated by Whiting, and still maintains that he is innocent and Max is the blame.
You can see in the video how Ocon's attitude is towards Max: provocatively arrogant and chidish.

No, max should not have pushed him, but Ocon pushed max first, just not by hands. Matter of fact, Ocon actually HIT max, in the friggin race, as good as a direct blow to the head.

Ocon was frustrated with not getting a drive next year, AND had a lousy race which he had only himself to blame for, and then in all frustration takes on a battle with Max.
Not even realizing that he might just have thrown in his own windows.

Taking a risk in a p18 position as a backmarker, getting unneccesary risks AND then a penalty AND car damage, AND damaging reputation as a Mercedes-leased driver, just wow.
I sincerely hope Ocon won't get that Williams drive next year.

He's been tangled with Perez constantly before and now manages to even tangle with a race winner in the most absolutely retarded way.
Hope he'll end up in Formula E and never again in F1.

May Russell @ Williams 2018 be like LeClerc at Sauber this year. Ocon will be swiftly forgotten.

[Manoah2u]

I will remember only one thing from this race and that is some stewards are idiots or corrupt. I cannot believe they give a penalty to Ocon. They made half of the passes in Brazil illegal. LOL.

[Just_a_fan]

The real question is why was Ocon fighting to unlap,

No, the question is why Max tried to stop him doing so. No need to fight him, just let him go. If/when he slows down you lap him again with the benefit of blue flags etc.

Max either learns to pick his fights or he'll become the next "could have been" guy.

[tpe]

Here is what I see from the OCO-VES incident.
1. Max simply doesn't like to be passed.
2. He knew than Ocon was there.
3. He closed the door, although Ocon was in the inside.
4. FIA was absolutely wrong punishing Ocon.
5. If not penalise Max (because he left no room to Ocon and basically he caused a collision), they should say racing incident. For one more time they shown their favorism towards Max. That's not good for Max.
6. Max is a WDC in waiting. But only if he learns from his mistakes and what the big picture is.
7. What the hell Ocon was trying to do? I was not impressed...

Guys, take off your fan glasses
On a side note. I am not a LH fan, but his reaction after the race shows why he is one of the greatest of all times.

[dans79]

@phil,

the thing is simple.

Ocon was FIGHTING max to unlap himself from 2 laps. that is just complete insanity.
It doesn't matter if he could unlap himself, whether he was fighter, by a margin or by a load.

he FOUGHT Max, and that is unacceptable for a backmarker.
he had NO fight with Max, but made it into one.

If he had to fight max, he wasn't fast enough to overtake him. it was not for position.

the backmarkers always complain how they need to move aside and endanger their own position by doing so,
instead, what does he think now? that a P1 driver needs to move aside for a p18 driver? how would that affect Max' race?!
it's total insanity!

furthermore, Ocon's dive into the first corner was really over the top. He carried way too much speed into that corner, took it wide, then did not budge whilst
it was not for position at all! even IF max would have left him space (which he did not think he should because any driver with IQ more than two fingers, would have
not sent one inside), then in the corner following turn 2 would have seen him on the outside again and not being able to pass max.

it is total madness what ocon did, but it's worse that he blames Max immediately after that with his arrogant and stupid answer on how it everybody could see what happened,
like he has no blame, then gets penalized rightfully so, also indicated by Whiting, and still maintains that he is innocent and Max is the blame.
You can see in the video how Ocon's attitude is towards Max: provocatively arrogant and chidish.

No, max should not have pushed him, but Ocon pushed max first, just not by hands. Matter of fact, Ocon actually HIT max, in the friggin race, as good as a direct blow to the head.

Ocon was frustrated with not getting a drive next year, AND had a lousy race which he had only himself to blame for, and then in all frustration takes on a battle with Max.
Not even realizing that he might just have thrown in his own windows.

Taking a risk in a p18 position as a backmarker, getting unneccesary risks AND then a penalty AND car damage, AND damaging reputation as a Mercedes-leased driver, just wow.
I sincerely hope Ocon won't get that Williams drive next year.

He's been tangled with Perez constantly before and now manages to even tangle with a race winner in the most absolutely retarded way.
Hope he'll end up in Formula E and never again in F1.

May Russell @ Williams 2018 be like LeClerc at Sauber this year. Ocon will be swiftly forgotten.

this entire posts reads like nothing more than a ridiculous list of justifications.

[zeph]

@phil,

the thing is simple.

Ocon was FIGHTING max to unlap himself from 2 laps. that is just complete insanity.
It doesn't matter if he could unlap himself, whether he was fighter, by a margin or by a load.

he FOUGHT Max, and that is unacceptable for a backmarker.
he had NO fight with Max, but made it into one.

If he had to fight max, he wasn't fast enough to overtake him. it was not for position.

the backmarkers always complain how they need to move aside and endanger their own position by doing so,
instead, what does he think now? that a P1 driver needs to move aside for a p18 driver? how would that affect Max' race?!
it's total insanity!

furthermore, Ocon's dive into the first corner was really over the top. He carried way too much speed into that corner, took it wide, then did not budge whilst
it was not for position at all! even IF max would have left him space (which he did not think he should because any driver with IQ more than two fingers, would have
not sent one inside), then in the corner following turn 2 would have seen him on the outside again and not being able to pass max.

it is total madness what ocon did, but it's worse that he blames Max immediately after that with his arrogant and stupid answer on how it everybody could see what happened,
like he has no blame, then gets penalized rightfully so, also indicated by Whiting, and still maintains that he is innocent and Max is the blame.
You can see in the video how Ocon's attitude is towards Max: provocatively arrogant and chidish.

No, max should not have pushed him, but Ocon pushed max first, just not by hands. Matter of fact, Ocon actually HIT max, in the friggin race, as good as a direct blow to the head.

Ocon was frustrated with not getting a drive next year, AND had a lousy race which he had only himself to blame for, and then in all frustration takes on a battle with Max.
Not even realizing that he might just have thrown in his own windows.

Taking a risk in a p18 position as a backmarker, getting unneccesary risks AND then a penalty AND car damage, AND damaging reputation as a Mercedes-leased driver, just wow.
I sincerely hope Ocon won't get that Williams drive next year.

He's been tangled with Perez constantly before and now manages to even tangle with a race winner in the most absolutely retarded way.
Hope he'll end up in Formula E and never again in F1.

May Russell @ Williams 2018 be like LeClerc at Sauber this year. Ocon will be swiftly forgotten.

Wow, you are really frustrated, huh?

I invite you to watch Ocon’s onboard camera and specifically point out where he went wrong. Or you can just let me tell you the answer: he was clean all the way, and Verstappen closed the door on him.



Don’t let the orange haze cloud your judgement.

[strad]

@phil,

the thing is simple.

Ocon was FIGHTING max to unlap himself from 2 laps. that is just complete insanity.
It doesn't matter if he could unlap himself, whether he was fighter, by a margin or by a load.

he FOUGHT Max, and that is unacceptable for a backmarker.
he had NO fight with Max, but made it into one.

[strad]

Ocon was the antagonist..at least 50/50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa0iSAzq12g