Formula One's Engine Crisis

[Just_a_fan]

Toyota will run a petrol powered turbo engine and also switch from a super-capacitor to a battery energy-storage system.

"In early October we had the engine running on the dyno, as well the new Hybrid system which will be connected to the new engine, so we are happy to be much better prepared for 2016,

So I wonder why F1 engine takes 3 years while the equally complicated fuel limited LMP engine takes just a year?

I'm guessing there are packaging limitations in F1 that don't exist in the slightly larger and heavier LMP format. Reliability in the F1 systems usually appear to be caused by the tight packaging required by open wheel aero.

[FoxHound]

DM at his best. Basically a big middle Finger to Renault and Honda and telling Merc and Ferrari to be scared and "As we know you can't buy courage or sporting spirit."

That Guy is something else.....

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12475/ ... es-in-2016
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mates ... ve-engine/
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121633

His predilection for the best at any cost, including the sport and it's competitors, is as you say....something else.

Seems McLaren aren't short of an opinion on them either.

McLaren racing director Eric Boullier said his team "is not a charity foundation" that has to solve problems "created by Red Bull"

Red Bull created this issue themselves, I have to concur with Boullier on that. But with their deadline being extended, and now Mateschitz out in full voice, you can't help feel this guy just wants out already.
From my perspective, better to sell and move on than keep moaning about a situation that's always been in F1.

[Phil]

I hope RedBull withdraws. Someone will buy the teams, and everything will continue as before, minus Mateschitz and Marko.

That would actually be an improvement, methinks.

You think so? If it's simply a management change, why would Mercedes and Ferrari suddenly happily supply them with engines if its the same team in place? They'd still be competitive. So, no, still no engines then. And who would buy a team that is too good, too big and too expensive for the prospect it has (not winning). Doesn't seem to me that there are many car manufacturers waiting for a sudden F1 entry.

[sgth0mas]

Yeah im trying to imagine who would buy them as well, and if they do...will it be a party that was originally looking at a true midfield team? I/E renault or Aston.

I think its bad that they want to leave...and will further seal F1s fate.

[Andres125sx]

I hope RedBull withdraws. Someone will buy the teams, and everything will continue as before, minus Mateschitz and Marko.

That would actually be an improvement, methinks.

Imagine VW/Audi buying RBR...

[Andres125sx]

too big and too expensive for the prospect it has (not winning)

The prospect it has is what they caused it to be. They´re free to develop their own engines, or to find some manufacturer to supply them. McLaren was in same situation past season and they solved it assuming they will not be competitive at least 1 or 2 seasons.

Any reason RBR can´t do the same? RBR is far from a victim

[Jonnycraig]

I hope RedBull withdraws. Someone will buy the teams, and everything will continue as before, minus Mateschitz and Marko.

That would actually be an improvement, methinks.

You think so? If it's simply a management change, why would Mercedes and Ferrari suddenly happily supply them with engines if its the same team in place? They'd still be competitive. So, no, still no engines then. And who would buy a team that is too good, too big and too expensive for the prospect it has (not winning). Doesn't seem to me that there are many car manufacturers waiting for a sudden F1 entry.

If the management all left, there's no reason Renault wouldn't supply them.

[NL_Fer]

too big and too expensive for the prospect it has (not winning)

The prospect it has is what they caused it to be. They´re free to develop their own engines, or to find some manufacturer to supply them. McLaren was in same situation past season and they solved it assuming they will not be competitive at least 1 or 2 seasons.

Any reason RBR can´t do the same? RBR is far from a victim

Honda was willing to return. Honda even paid McLaren and the drivers. Honda was the only one. VW/Audi stepped back when Dieselgate was there. BMW has it's sportscar projects. Toyota are happy in WEC. GM stays in he US with Indycars. Only Hyundai maybe, but they declined in 2011.

Sure Redbull can round up some of the best techs, put them in a lab with a dyno and they will produce a decent engine. But this wil cost another 300M and whats the marketing revenue for a Energy drinks company, doing this?

[Andres125sx]

Sure Redbull can round up some of the best techs, put them in a lab with a dyno and they will produce a decent engine. But this wil cost another 300M and whats the marketing revenue for a Energy drinks company, doing this?

That is the problem. They want manufacturer perfomance with customer investment

If they can´t/don´t want to invest as much as manufacturers, they shouldn´t expect same perfomance

[FW17]

Honda was willing to return. Honda even paid McLaren and the drivers. Honda was the only one. VW/Audi stepped back when Dieselgate was there. BMW has it's sportscar projects. Toyota are happy in WEC. GM stays in he US with Indycars. Only Hyundai maybe, but they declined in 2011.

Sure Redbull can round up some of the best techs, put them in a lab with a dyno and they will produce a decent engine. But this wil cost another 300M and whats the marketing revenue for a Energy drinks company, doing this?

You still have Ford, Purguot, Jaguar etc whom RB can approach for the F1 project.

In case Red Bull have to do there own engine, would any of the existing 4 manufacturers be willing to sell part of their engine to RedBull? i.e all of the power unit without the Cylinder head (combustion unit and header), turbo and MGU which Red Bull would have to design and build themselves.

[FoxHound]

In case Red Bull have to do there own engine, would any of the existing 4 manufacturers be willing to sell part of their engine to RedBull? i.e all of the power unit without the Cylinder head (combustion unit and header), turbo and MGU which Red Bull would have to design and build themselves.

In case of selling, it would be cheaper to develop IMO.

50 people head up an engine programme at Red Bull's building 9, headed by non other than Mario Illien himself.
And if there is anyone that can build an engine on a budget it's super Mario.

But the main issue is not the ICE(engine) itself. The engine cannot go beyond the laws of physics, and they're pretty close to that with conventional combustion engines.
The problem is harvesting energy from the engine and turbo, and utilising at efficiently. This is the expensive part of the operation.
Zytek can and do build hybrid solutions and have supplied to none other than Mercedes in the past, and they're located about an hours drive from Milton Keynes(RBR ops).

So it would not be beyond the realms of possibility that Red Bull utilise skills from suppliers(as all manufacturers do), to get an engine built.

[sgth0mas]

Honda was willing to return. Honda even paid McLaren and the drivers. Honda was the only one. VW/Audi stepped back when Dieselgate was there. BMW has it's sportscar projects. Toyota are happy in WEC. GM stays in he US with Indycars. Only Hyundai maybe, but they declined in 2011.

Sure Redbull can round up some of the best techs, put them in a lab with a dyno and they will produce a decent engine. But this wil cost another 300M and whats the marketing revenue for a Energy drinks company, doing this?

You still have Ford, Purguot, Jaguar etc whom RB can approach for the F1 project.

In case Red Bull have to do there own engine, would any of the existing 4 manufacturers be willing to sell part of their engine to RedBull? i.e all of the power unit without the Cylinder head (combustion unit and header), turbo and MGU which Red Bull would have to design and build themselves.

Ford has le mans coming up with the GT. F1 would only suit their new model lineups if it were to allow non hybrids. Id love to see that, but then youd have honda, chevy and ford stepping in with an almost immediately effective solution.

With the current formula...i cant imagine ford will waste their time.

[NL_Fer]

In case Red Bull have to do there own engine, would any of the existing 4 manufacturers be willing to sell part of their engine to RedBull? i.e all of the power unit without the Cylinder head (combustion unit and header), turbo and MGU which Red Bull would have to design and build themselves.

In case of selling, it would be cheaper to develop IMO.

50 people head up an engine programme at Red Bull's building 9, headed by non other than Mario Illien himself.
And if there is anyone that can build an engine on a budget it's super Mario.

But the main issue is not the ICE(engine) itself. The engine cannot go beyond the laws of physics, and they're pretty close to that with conventional combustion engines.
The problem is harvesting energy from the engine and turbo, and utilising at efficiently. This is the expensive part of the operation.
Zytek can and do build hybrid solutions and have supplied to none other than Mercedes in the past, and they're located about an hours drive from Milton Keynes(RBR ops).

So it would not be beyond the realms of possibility that Red Bull utilise skills from suppliers(as all manufacturers do), to get an engine built.

You are so wrong, it is all about the ICE.

Burning efficiently at full power is a totally new area of development, we are only at 40%, so gains can be made. Also efficient harvesting is about how the exhaust gasses are generated by the ICE and exited trough he manifolds and turbo.

But it doesn't matter, it is about 300M that somebody has to invest. Merc, Fiat and Honda are willing to, and think the exposure is worth it. Renault, i don't know.

I think Ford (Ecoboost) and Hyundai are the only ones that would invest.

[zeph]

I hope RedBull withdraws. Someone will buy the teams, and everything will continue as before, minus Mateschitz and Marko.

That would actually be an improvement, methinks.

You think so? If it's simply a management change, why would Mercedes and Ferrari suddenly happily supply them with engines if its the same team in place? They'd still be competitive. So, no, still no engines then. And who would buy a team that is too good, too big and too expensive for the prospect it has (not winning). Doesn't seem to me that there are many car manufacturers waiting for a sudden F1 entry.

They'd continue with Renault engines. I suspect those will be more competitive next season, and frankly, even now they don't suck that bad. Renault hasn't closed the door entirely, Ghosn was displeased but didn't rule it out. Horner hasn't been as vocal as Mateschitz and Marko, and I don't see him leaving. He is arguably the best team principal in F1 (and Ecclestone's preferred successor, apparently).

A potential buyer doesn't have to be a car manufacturer, although I imagine it would be entirely possible for VAG to buy RBR, even if the emissions scandal put that deal on the backburner for now (btw, October US sales are up for VW, go figure). There are other parties currently looking to get into F1, and RBR is about as good as it gets, regardless of engines.

But it all depends on whether Mateschitz really wants out or whether he is just posturing, and even if he wants out, I can see him asking $10 billion for the team, which nobody will pay, obviously.

[FrukostScones]

Red Bull will run Renault engines, and TR also is most likely for me...
If TR ran 2015 Ferrrai PU's then VES would beat both RB pilots.