2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[CHT]

To clarify, I am not making any comparison to Red Bull, just the fact (?) that they are not going to be in the fight this year, so what is to lose except money they would have spent anyway in a passed year . They can not just not bother to attend races as they are contracted to by F1 and (probably ) sponsors. They can not build or test beyond the level other teams can, so there seems no way to catch up as the 'brains' that have been doing tricks seem to have wandered off to other teams, so it looks unlikely much is going to change.
What are their options?

Ps not saying it is unfair, it has been the same for other teams, but until 2021 there was the 'throw money at it 'option, now there is not even the option to try one or two tweaks without falling foul, so the sheep or lamb thing becomes relevant

Questions
1) How much will Merc have to spend in order to win?
2) Though RBR was fined $7 million and 10 percent reduction in its aerodynamic testing allowance for 12 months, for overspending by 1.7%. There is no written rule saying that the penalty for overspending will be limited to a fine and reducting in testing.
3) Can excessive spending guarantee success in F1? (think Toyota)
4) Is Merc brand image worth less than Hamilton 8th WDC that they need to cheat to win?

[ValeVida46]

To clarify, I am not making any comparison to Red Bull, just the fact (?) that they are not going to be in the fight this year, so what is to lose except money they would have spent anyway in a passed year . They can not just not bother to attend races as they are contracted to by F1 and (probably ) sponsors. They can not build or test beyond the level other teams can, so there seems no way to catch up as the 'brains' that have been doing tricks seem to have wandered off to other teams, so it looks unlikely much is going to change.
What are their options?

Ps not saying it is unfair, it has been the same for other teams, but until 2021 there was the 'throw money at it 'option, now there is not even the option to try one or two tweaks without falling foul, so the sheep or lamb thing becomes relevant

Questions
1) How much will Merc have to spend in order to win?
2) Though RBR was fined $7 million and 10 percent reduction in its aerodynamic testing allowance for 12 months, for overspending by 1.7%. There is no written rule saying that the penalty for overspending will be limited to a fine and reducting in testing.
3) Can excessive spending guarantee success in F1? (think Toyota)
4) Is Merc brand image worth less than Hamilton 8th WDC that they need to cheat to win?

1) Maybe merc can turn it around without breaching the budget cap.
2) That wont go down well when penalty system is based on who commits the transgression.
3) Toyota haven't won a single race in F1, think Mercedes are a different category to that shambles.
4) It did no harm for Red Bull when they palmed it off as a catering error. Problem is, when you can excuse it for X or Y it isn't cheating right?

[CHT]

To clarify, I am not making any comparison to Red Bull, just the fact (?) that they are not going to be in the fight this year, so what is to lose except money they would have spent anyway in a passed year . They can not just not bother to attend races as they are contracted to by F1 and (probably ) sponsors. They can not build or test beyond the level other teams can, so there seems no way to catch up as the 'brains' that have been doing tricks seem to have wandered off to other teams, so it looks unlikely much is going to change.
What are their options?

Ps not saying it is unfair, it has been the same for other teams, but until 2021 there was the 'throw money at it 'option, now there is not even the option to try one or two tweaks without falling foul, so the sheep or lamb thing becomes relevant

Questions
1) How much will Merc have to spend in order to win?
2) Though RBR was fined $7 million and 10 percent reduction in its aerodynamic testing allowance for 12 months, for overspending by 1.7%. There is no written rule saying that the penalty for overspending will be limited to a fine and reducting in testing.
3) Can excessive spending guarantee success in F1? (think Toyota)
4) Is Merc brand image worth less than Hamilton 8th WDC that they need to cheat to win?

1) Maybe merc can turn it around without breaching the budget cap.
2) That wont go down well when penalty system is based on who commits the transgression.
3) Toyota haven't won a single race in F1, think Mercedes are a different category to that shambles.
4) It did no harm for Red Bull when they palmed it off as a catering error. Problem is, when you can excuse it for X or Y it isn't cheating right?

1) Just maybe
2) Merc should find out if that is true
3) Merc barely won 1 race in 2022
4) RBR success in 2022 and 2023 1st race is certainly not due to the $1.7m extra expenditure

[ValeVida46]

1) Just maybe
2) Merc should find out if that is true
3) Merc barely won 1 race in 2022
4) RBR success in 2022 and 2023 1st race is certainly not due to the $1.7m extra expenditure

1) Every team gets the chance to compete, and attempt to remedy situations. That's why it's a sport.
2) Only merc?
3) 1 win in 1 season is better than no win in 7 seasons. Seems there's more than hint of bias in your reply.
4) It's ok to break the rules so long as it doesn't change the result by...what metric?

[BAKf1]

Doesn’t the change in any sidepod concept necessitate a change to front wing, Floor, and rear wing - at a minimum. The new sidepod design would necessarily generate a different amount of overbody downforce (less or more depending on the design) requiring a change to how much downforce is generated by the floor. Also, a change to the floor and sidepods would need a new front wing to direct airflow properly. In other words, changing sidepods drastically means you have to change the whole car. B-spec it is.

[mendis]

1) Just maybe
2) Merc should find out if that is true
3) Merc barely won 1 race in 2022
4) RBR success in 2022 and 2023 1st race is certainly not due to the $1.7m extra expenditure

1) Every team gets the chance to compete, and attempt to remedy situations. That's why it's a sport.
2) Only merc?
3) 1 win in 1 season is better than no win in 7 seasons. Seems there's more than hint of bias in your reply.
4) It's ok to break the rules so long as it doesn't change the result by...what metric?

Mercedes should go ahead and break the rule and see what happens next. Why debate it? What any keyboard warrior here says, isn't going to change anything. Nobody in Red Bull is going to lose sleep, if a few people on this planet thinks RB won 2021/22/23/24/25 by breaking cost cap in 2021 and not because RB did a better job. Just that, it's a good topic to debate endlessly on internet forums.

[CHT]

1) Just maybe
2) Merc should find out if that is true
3) Merc barely won 1 race in 2022
4) RBR success in 2022 and 2023 1st race is certainly not due to the $1.7m extra expenditure

1) Every team gets the chance to compete, and attempt to remedy situations. That's why it's a sport.
2) Only merc?
3) 1 win in 1 season is better than no win in 7 seasons. Seems there's more than hint of bias in your reply.
4) It's ok to break the rules so long as it doesn't change the result by...what metric?

In modern F1, cars will make or break the drivers and there are now many restrictions and limitations to what a team can do to remedy the situation. What you are saying here is just a hypothesis that every team can win if they try hard enough because every team has an equal chance.

Ask Ferrari, Williams or Mclaren, When was the last time these champions won a championship? Are they not trying hard or being sporting to remedy the situation? Are they not spending? I am sure they do.

Toyota is just my response to your suggestion that by throwing money team can win.

If any team thinks they can win the championship just by spending $1.7m more than the budget cap, by all means. I am sure their attempt would have gone unnoticed.

[ValeVida46]

In modern F1, cars will make or break the drivers and there are now many restrictions and limitations to what a team can do to remedy the situation. What you are saying here is just a hypothesis that every team can win if they try hard enough because every team has an equal chance.

Because "restrictions and limitations" teams should just throw in the towel?
It's not a hypothesis. It's a sport.
There's no 2 ways about it. Competition works on the basis of competing.
I'm not sure what you're trying to address here.

Ask Ferrari, Williams or Mclaren, When was the last time these champions won a championship? Are they not trying hard or being sporting to remedy the situation? Are they not spending? I am sure they do.

Therefore, Ferrari, Williams and McLaren should all just leave because they aren't winning?
Or cheat their way to winning? Again, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Toyota is just my response to your suggestion that by throwing money team can win.

For your Toyota example, there's a Red Bull/Mercedes/McLaren/Williams/Ferrari example of big budgets winning titles. It's an outlier that really had nothing to do with budget and everything to do with how the team was set up.
Are you suggesting that Mercedes are set up incorrectly? That's interesting. Perhaps you care to expand on that.

If any team thinks they can win the championship just by spending $1.7m more than the budget cap, by all means. I am sure their attempt would have gone unnoticed.

I think it's pretty clear you are ok with rule breaking so long as it's by a defined amount. No judgement, you do you.

[CHT]

In modern F1, cars will make or break the drivers and there are now many restrictions and limitations to what a team can do to remedy the situation. What you are saying here is just a hypothesis that every team can win if they try hard enough because every team has an equal chance.

Because "restrictions and limitations" teams should just throw in the towel?
It's not a hypothesis. It's a sport.
There's no 2 ways about it. Competition works on the basis of competing.
I'm not sure what you're trying to address here.

Ask Ferrari, Williams or Mclaren, When was the last time these champions won a championship? Are they not trying hard or being sporting to remedy the situation? Are they not spending? I am sure they do.

Therefore, Ferrari, Williams and McLaren should all just leave because they aren't winning?
Or cheat their way to winning? Again, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Toyota is just my response to your suggestion that by throwing money team can win.

For your Toyota example, there's a Red Bull/Mercedes/McLaren/Williams/Ferrari example of big budgets winning titles. It's an outlier that really had nothing to do with budget and everything to do with how the team was set up.
Are you suggesting that Mercedes are set up incorrectly? That's interesting. Perhaps you care to expand on that.

If any team thinks they can win the championship just by spending $1.7m more than the budget cap, by all means. I am sure their attempt would have gone unnoticed.

I think it's pretty clear you are ok with rule breaking so long as it's by a defined amount. No judgement, you do you.

F1 has always beem about finding loop holes in the rules book to win. what you are suggesting here is breaking rule intentionally to win and accept penalties that comes along because its worth it.

That is not sporting that's cheating. It aint a sport when you need to cheat to win.

[ValeVida46]

F1 has always beem about finding loop holes in the rules book to win. what you are suggesting here is breaking rule intentionally to win and accept penalties that comes along because its worth it.

That is not sporting that's cheating. It aint a sport when you need to cheat to win.

Right!
It's cheating if you break the rules.

Can we add something to the FIA rulebook if its by accident? Because as you say, it's cheating if it's intentional.
That leaves unintentional rule breaking in a grey area.
How do you propose the FIA deal with unintentional cheating?

[taperoo2k]

A theoretical question, if anyone fancies a go at it.
What would happen if Merc said 'sod it, lets sort it' and ignored the cost cap?
Throw resources at it irrespective of limits, just get it sorted. It looks unlikely to be anywhere close to a title this year, so blow the budget and aim for the best car next year.

I doubt Mercedes would risk the reputational damage to the Mercedes brand by breaking the cost cap.
More likely to happen is the team will simply stop actively developing the W14 and redirect those resources into the new concept. There is little point in blowing the budget on the 2024 car if they end up breaching the cost cap and face big fines and a reduction in wind tunnel and CFD time in the following season. F1 never stands still, Red Bull could be caught out by the reduced aero development later in the season. Or they could do just enough to get away with it.

I'd expect Mercedes to drop into the midfield this season whilst they sort out the design concept. Sometimes you have to go backwards before you can move forwards. Maybe they'll run a hybrid of the W14 and the new concept this season if they can develop it quickly enough and if they have the budget to manufacture new parts for both drivers.

The reality for Mercedes is they could turn things around, but never quite catch Red Bull during these sets of regulations.

[Jozsusz]

Can someone tell me please how good is Merc's wind tunnel compared to the other teams?

[AR3-GP]

Can someone tell me please how good is Merc's wind tunnel compared to the other teams?

It's the same one Aston Martin is using. Plenty good enough.

[chrisc90]

Do AMR and Mercedes have their own software for evaluating the results too?

[AR3-GP]

Do AMR and Mercedes have their own software for evaluating the results too?

Which results? Windtunnel? Telemetry?