F1 wing manufacturing

[kreuzberg]

I was doing a project in university today where we were making rear wings out of carbon fibre and I was was wondering if anyone has any info on how they do it in Formula 1?

All I can find is that they use unidirectional fibres along the length of the cords but theres no info on number of layers, core materials, re-inforcing mounting points etc

I know this kind of stuff is top secret but any information would be really helpful.

Thanks!

[SZ]

So:

You know the span and chord.
You know the maximum deflection allowed.
You know what kind of material and manufacturing technologies exist.
You know what kind of manufacturing technologies exist.
You can appreciate parts are made to be as light as possible.

Thinking is not top secret. Just do the maths.

[kreuzberg]

To be honest I dont have several spare months to work out the thousands of different configurations of skin material, core material, layer number, direction and thickness so I was hoping for a specific example.

[marcush.]

core material?
if youd think those wings are solid youd better start looking deeper into the subject of lightweight fabrication.
those wings consist of ribs ,spars and skin mouldings .Mold layout and in effect parting lines for the outer skins is one of the keys to arrive at really lightweight parts as you will need only a minimum of bonding and no finishing to assemble the wing.

[SZ]

You admit it's top secret.
You know this is a public forum.
And yet you ask for a specific example.

Go to an engineering library, read a book etc - you'll discover that the maths behind this kind of composite structure is actually pretty simple... more an afternoon's work on a spreadsheet to put you in the ballpark than a 'couple of months'.

Interesting that if you can't (for whatever reason) do that much that you'd trust information you'd get on an internet forum rather than building a few and destructively testing them...

...core type is pretty obvious (think about it), skin material changes team to team, layers will change on load.

Think about it. There's not a lot of work in a reasonable starting point, and no one's going to hand you an optimised solution.

[kreuzberg]

Yeah core materials. Like foams and honeycombs.

SZ do you have any idea how to design and engineer a wing? If you did you'd obviously know its actually not pretty simple

I guess it was a mistake asking this question as its obviously above the knowledge of the people on this forum

[SZ]

Yeah core materials. Like foams and honeycombs.

Understood that first time around. Think, and what you'd use is obvious.

SZ do you have any idea how to design and engineer a wing?

Yup... have done this many times.

If you did you'd obviously know its actually not pretty simple

I (actually) know it's pretty straightforward and not the black magic you seem convinced it is, and took the time to point you towards a productive direction.

I guess it was a mistake asking this question as its obviously above the knowledge of the people on this forum

I'd not be so quick to take your limitations out on others...

...though in that, it's highly amusing that you're proposing to demand an answer over an internet user forum to an exacting question - the details of which are a strictly confidential matter - which you intend to incorporate into a university project and pass off as original work...

[kreuzberg]

I am only asking because I was interested in how it was made.

Are your posts so pointlessly aggressive to everyone else who asks a question on the forum?

[wesley123]

Dont be such unt©, I am only asking because I was interested in how it was made.

Are you so pointlessly aggressive to everyone else who asks a question on the forum?

no, and actually he isnt doing it here either.

like said before(or how i understood it lol), such building is secret data and types of building it differ in strength and ease of building, so you have to test such things, you dont get the 'perfect' wing manufacturing chewed in front of you like a piece of gum. All you want to do is let us do the work for you so you can say on your high school 'how good you are and how smart you are that you have done it'

[kreuzberg]

Its not for my high school or anything like that, I was only curious about how the process was done in F1 compared to how I did it.

And yes he was.

[noname]

To be honest I dont have several spare months to work out the thousands of different configurations of skin material, core material, layer number, direction and thickness so I was hoping for a specific example.

composite panels for A350 wing are being designed for more than a year and they are not ready yet... and we are talking about category C structures.

before this job was started Airbus spent huge amount of money on research - materials, analysis methods, manufacturing processes, etc., etc... I have a piece of test panel on my desk and when I look at it I am not convinced I would like to fly this plane. designing the structure is not so complicated, doing it right is a little bit more challenging but manufacturing it right is when the real fun begins.

of course one can say aviation likes spending an awful lot of cash and does not like to be in a hurry (and would be right) but I suspect knowledge owned by F1 team costs them a lot and is not something they like giving for free.

[kreuzberg]

Thanks noname, it seems atleast you how much effort it takes to design performance composite structures.

It seems F1 companies don't mind telling you some details as long as they don't use that method anymore. We had the head of composites from Williams F1 come in to lecture us yesterday and he told us a little about the fibres they used in the past that had boron and things like that in that are now illegal in F1. He also when in to detail in how the tub was manufactured but didn't reveal anything about the wing manufacture. although he did bring in a part that was a few years old, that was why I asked the original question.

There is also a few wings sitting in the workshop that are of Jaguar F1 design that where made here that have a foam core but I don't know if they were just experiments or if they were actually used, no one seemed to know.

[safeaschuck]

Kruezberg, mate, wind your neck in eh? I know nothing all about wings but by reading this thread I already know SZ knows more than you do, probably quite a lot more. Although I tend to type as I speak and include a swear word where I would ordinarily I think that anyone that even hints at calling somone the c word on a forum or face to face, in what is pretty much their first conversation with them is woefully short of self control or one themselves. I'm trying to restrain myself here.
Yes, SZ could have been a little less evasive but he is opening a conversation with you. You could just be fishing and not genuine at all. Give a bit, get a bit.

I've seen wing profile's for sale at memorabilia stands at motorsport shows, they are hologramed with the teams official stickers and scuffed up as if they have had some use. Williams, Jaguar, Toyota. Reasnobly inexpensive. If you don't want to buy one just pick it up and have a look? you will attending events like that I guess? if you are in a course where Williams employees are giving lectures?

[Carlos]

I'd have to agree, kreuzberg's use of a prejorative is contemptable. Face to face it would result in a beating or, at the very least, invite the total dismissal of any possiblity of respect.

[PlatinumZealot]

Let me try..Never did work on composites.. but I like approaching the random problem, Kreus.

The wing takes the load across the span like a beam right? So I think the strength of the fibre needs to be mainly along the span of the wing than the chord.

When I see pictures of the inside of air plane wings they also have sections inside to strengthen it (Ribs?). So You would make multiple wing Ribs along the span. Of course the ribs are shaped like the wing profile. [Imagine bending the wing.. the top fibre is in compression and the bottom in tension.. the carbon fibre at the bottom i feel is supposed to be thicker because the main attribute of CF is it's tensile strength. Whether or not a spar is necessary you have to do some calculation or simulation. (Spar at the leading edge of the wing?)

Manufacturing.. I never fabricated anything from carbon before but from watching Youtube .. you have to make a split mold to put in carbon fabric. I know in F1 they use pre-impregnated Carbon Fibre for this.

I don't know if you glue on the rib sections on the Carbon in the mold then Vacuum bag, then chuck them all into the autoclave at once.. or if there is a certain order to do it:?: Something must can be figured out. Just improvise.

That is how I would approach it. Even if It was the wrong way to do it, I still think it would hold up even if the deflection was too much for F1 standards. Then again, you can't really do much since it's just a small project anyway.