Is there a limit to how much downforce is produced?

[raymondu999]

Hey all. Just had a curious question here. Given any set of rules, say for example the 2008 rules, or 2009/2010 aero regs, is there actually a point where everyone would struggle to add downforce, in a kind of asymptotic way, or is there, actually, with the correct creativity and ideas, a way to actually keep on innovating and just have more and more downforce?

Thanks

[flynfrog]

Hey all. Just had a curious question here. Given any set of rules, say for example the 2008 rules, or 2009/2010 aero regs, is there actually a point where everyone would struggle to add downforce, in a kind of asymptotic way, or is there, actually, with the correct creativity and ideas, a way to actually keep on innovating and just have more and more downforce?

Thanks

down-force is limited by engine power. The struggle comes down to lowering the drag and gaining df. With unlimited power I would guess that the drivers give out long before the engineers cant find more DF

[raymondu999]

The reason I asked is with the DDD being banned for next year, will they be able to get back to 2010-levels in terms of downforce?

[engineguru00]

Engineers will always be engineers. They will always push the limits of the regs to find that little bit of extra performance. If you knock them down by taking away the DDD, they will find another way to make DF. So for a few months to a year the downforce would probably drop back to the 2009 testing levels, but I would expect them to crawl back up. I see the F-Duct systems (Passive or Active) as a great example of this.

[Pandamasque]

I would guess that the drivers give out long before the engineers cant find more DF

I don't think the current or the 2008 set of regs would allow anywhere near the amount of downforce to create serious problems for the drivers.

Also let's not forget about the suspensions. The downforce on the straights causes the cars to bottom out. F-duct system probably helps somewhat but it's not going to be in 2010 apparently.
In any case I think the engineers will need a year or two to catch up to the current levels of DF with no DDD.

[raymondu999]

You mean it's not going to be in *2011* right?

I say Newey gets first dibs on 2010 downforce levels without the DDD

[flynfrog]

I would guess that the drivers give out long before the engineers cant find more DF

I don't think the current or the 2008 set of regs would allow anywhere near the amount of downforce to create serious problems for the drivers.

Also let's not forget about the suspensions. The downforce on the straights causes the cars to bottom out. F-duct system probably helps somewhat but it's not going to be in 2010 apparently.
In any case I think the engineers will need a year or two to catch up to the current levels of DF with no DDD.

I am sure you could find enough DF with current regs the car wouldn't be that fast per lap though. I have no doubt you could crank enough wing on the car to make a driver pass out. It might top out at 100mph on the straits though.

[Pandamasque]

I have no doubt you could crank enough wing on the car to make a driver pass out.

The AoA used now is crazy. The trailing edge is almost 90 deg. Add some more and they would stall. All those fancy blown slots are there for a reason.

You mean it's not going to be in *2011* right?

I say Newey gets first dibs on 2010 downforce levels without the DDD

May well do that by the end of the year.

[flynfrog]

think of the manaco wing package at a faster track. It also takes a long enough corner the CART guys were passing out with much less df Than F1 runs now but it was on a oval.