Korean GP 2010 - Yeongam

[Terrible3]

Vettels engine failures are of two completely different parts on the engine (talking about Bahrain and Korea). Suddenly the fact that he has had two engines failed due to different parts signifies that Vettel is doing something fundamentally different from Webber is bull roar. --- happens, don't draw conclusions so quickly.

[djos]

The simple facts are Webbers cars usually only break when he makes a mistake and crashes, Seb seems to break his cars under "normal" racing conditions.

[928S]

For those saying that Vettel killed his engine. That is not possible with a modern day F1 engine. The engine management system will NOT allow a driver to kill the engine. It goes up in smoke on it's own.

That statement is rubbish, I am an engine builder myself, just for the record I use a lot of exotic materials in these builds as they are not average builds, inconel exhausts Ti valves rotor type dry sumps etc, revs do kill the engines! Wear goes up exponentially. I know that the revs are limited to 18,000 rpm, der! but if you are closer to that redline more often your wear rate will be higher have no doubt. Vettel's engine failed at the end of the straight.

Webber may be short shifting his engine, at least more than Vettel, as we know Vettel likes to be quickest at all times. Just say Webber on the straights in practice just short shifts, Vettel gives it full revs, there will be a difference when the life of the engine is nearing its end. I have noticed on tracks that have long straights that Webbers sector time will be slower in practice.

I know about the programming of the engine, that is sometimes referred to as torque control, where the peak characteristics are smoothed away to give a more linear power delivery.

For those still with any doubt the reason the FIA reduced the revs from 19,000 to 18,000 was that they wouldn't last the three races at those revs without a small or maybe large fortune spent on them with still no garrantee the engines would live. So that extra 1000 revs makes a huge difference so if Webber shifts 500 to 1000 rpm lower in practice and at certain points of the race I am satisfied as to why he is not having this trouble in the races.

[Giblet]

People dont seem to understand causality. There is nothing a driver can do to a rev limited engine to break it. Thinking that he somehow can hurt an engine is insane.

The mechanics making an error is so much more likely.

I'd like to see someones reasoning of how seb caused a coincidence.

[Miguel]

Alonso btw was lucky to avoid a penalty for setting a purple third sector time under yellow after Petrow crashed his Renault in lap 41 at the pit entry. It appears that everybody was too busy to notice it.

I did notice that. At first I thought he was going to get a drive through or something, but then I realised that everybody was getting green sectors. Furthermore, I don't recall them taking the R30 out of the way, so the yellow flag stayed there until the end of the race. Sincerely, I don't understand why full-speed racing was allowed and why that car wasn't removed.

Regarding Vettel's failures, while unbalanced, I don't think we're seeing an statistically significant deviation.

PS: Current F1 "HD" broadcast makes me feel sad. It sucks to see the overlays in such great detail, while the rest is upscaled signal. I'll toast on you when HD F1 is announced, because, WB, you are going to enjoy it. I'm looking for a screenshot of Japan '07, which was shot in HD for Fuji TV, and will post it in the HD thread.

[ringo]

People dont seem to understand causality. There is nothing a driver can do to a rev limited engine to break it. Thinking that he somehow can hurt an engine is insane.

The mechanics making an error is so much more likely.

I'd like to see someones reasoning of how seb caused a coincidence.

Took the words out of my mouth.
Vettel's side of the garage may have less skilled mechanics. The may not be as organized or focused on tiny details like Webber's mechanics.

The driver is the last person i would look at to explain an engine failure.
The engine only sees load, and it's designed to take any load Vettel can throw at it.
The engine went for 1600km, when it should have been able to do 2100km. Clearly revving was not the issue.

We see this in most of the teams. Truli's mechancis, Liuzi's, are 2 groups i know always seem to overlook something with their work. These guys always have engine or hydraulic problems, and it has nothing to do with their driver's style.
Swapping the mechanics around may not solve the problem either, they could infect the other side of the garage with their work ethic. The only solution is better work structuring and oversight by the chiefs.

[Terrible3]

The simple facts are Webbers cars usually only break when he makes a mistake and crashes, Seb seems to break his cars under "normal" racing conditions.

So Webber had to change his gearbox in Canada, by that logic he must be hard on gearboxes... this is clearly not true. You need a larger sample to really make such statements. Is it not possible that there is a 50% chance of vettel breaking a part first and then the team redesigning that part so that it does not fail for Webber and Vettel in the next race? Just what were the failures up to this point and where they are all driver related?

From what I can recall....
Vettel: Engine Header (correct me if I am wrong), Front upright, brakes, unknown engine failure
MW: Gearbox

[shotzski]

Since the 2 Red Bulls crashed out, will they be penalized if they choose to use their 9th engine on both cars?

[Miguel]

Since the 2 Red Bulls crashed out, will they be penalized if they choose to use their 9th engine on both cars?

Yes, they will. However, I doubt Webber's engine has sustained any kind of meaningful damage.

[djos]

The simple facts are Webbers cars usually only break when he makes a mistake and crashes, Seb seems to break his cars under "normal" racing conditions.

So Webber had to change his gearbox in Canada, by that logic he must be hard on gearboxes... this is clearly not true. You need a larger sample to really make such statements. Is it not possible that there is a 50% chance of vettel breaking a part first and then the team redesigning that part so that it does not fail for Webber and Vettel in the next race? Just what were the failures up to this point and where they are all driver related?

From what I can recall....
Vettel: Engine Header (correct me if I am wrong), Front upright, brakes, unknown engine failure
MW: Gearbox

Like I said "usually", anyway you're making my point for me - Mark has had one major mechanical failure vs 1/2 a dozen for Seb. (and may i point out Webber still brought his car home)

[wrcsti]

I was watching a demolition derby, THEN A RACE BROKE OUT!

[Terrible3]

Please elaborate how SV could have possibly driven any different from MW in order to cause a header to fail...

[djos]

Please elaborate how SV could have possibly driven any different from MW in order to cause a header to fail...

Seb likes to be very aggressive with curbs, more so than Mark ... I'll let you figure out the rest.

[ringo]

Please elaborate how SV could have possibly driven any different from MW in order to cause a header to fail...

Seb likes to be very aggressive with curbs, more so than Mark ... I'll let you figure out the rest.

aggressive with curbs in a wet race? That doesn't sound right.
Vettel stayed clear of the curbs today that's why he led most of the race and Webber crashed out. Mark was the one being aggressive with the curbs.
Drivers avoid the curbs as much as they can in a wet race like this.

IMO riding curbs cannot damage the engine since the forces that go through the suspension likely don't compress the spring to it's limit.
The engine more than likely is designed to take the maximum spring forces, since it's a stressed member and basically the chassis. You don't design a car chassis or spring support that is weaker than it's springs.

What curbs can do to damage the engine though, is when the driver rides directly over them,bellying out the car; the bottom of the engine taking direct impact at points unintended for loading, instead of the suspension taking the force.

Vettel just has the less technically detailed mechanics it seems. His luck is more to do with the team assigned to him.

[djos]

I was referring to the broken header comment from a previous race.