2023 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 30 - July 02

[dialtone]

"A couple minutes". Did you know that Q3 for the sprint shootout is 8 minutes long? Do you think the drivers have "a couple minutes" to wait for race control?

I have only one answer for you: keep it on track.

People want to disqualify drivers causing red flags but a driver going out of track, that maybe would even crash on natural limits, is entitled to 30 other attempts until they make it.

A driver should not be entitled to 30 attempts until they make it. I don't follow your logic. With a proper edge to the track, drivers would either stay in, or be unable to complete the lap. Simple.

Are you the same person complaining about 2 minutes being a lot in 8 min quali 1 post ago?

[chrisc90]

Max pole stands.

[codetower]

Or, and I might be out on a limb here, drivers paid millions per year can learn to not go out of the track limits? The track is the same for everyone yet a particular team had both drivers with multiple laps deleted.

Somehow we need to think about the fans about a quali in which some drivers are unable to keep the car on track, but not when a team is driving 1s/lap ahead of the rest of the pack driving everyone to sleep...

The wise once said: git gud. (or is this only applicable when your team wins?)

Do you have an opinion on race control erroneously deleting Gasly's lap?

That is exactly why the track should be configured to punish the driver as opposed to relying on error prone humans to watch video cameras and delete laps 5 minutes after they were set, potentially denying drivers the opportunity to set another lap or making them waste tires setting laps they don't need to set!

How is it not obvious that having humans involved in the policing process is an inferior system to natural track limit deterrents? Most of the circuit has been designed properly. T7 and T10 are all wrong.

Drivers don't want natural limits in those fast corners because it's dangerous, like they don't want sausage kerbs. Just stay on track, they make mm perfect corners in monaco but can't keep it on track in an oval-like corner.

The Gasly stuff is a nothingburger, they review their own decisions quite quickly as it took them a couple minutes.

I get the frustration, but I'm glad they are enforcing the track limits. The Gasly thing was nothing. He dropped from like 5th to 8th, It didn't knock anyone out.

Look at it another way... imagine that Q3 lap of Leclerc, pushing hard to get on the front row, then Perez comes in behind and beats him by a couple of hundredths but went over the limit to do it. Should Leclerc lose the front row even though he got his time while keeping WITHIN the limit?

[AR3-GP]

Do you have an opinion on race control erroneously deleting Gasly's lap?

That is exactly why the track should be configured to punish the driver as opposed to relying on error prone humans to watch video cameras and delete laps 5 minutes after they were set, potentially denying drivers the opportunity to set another lap or making them waste tires setting laps they don't need to set!

How is it not obvious that having humans involved in the policing process is an inferior system to natural track limit deterrents? Most of the circuit has been designed properly. T7 and T10 are all wrong.

Drivers don't want natural limits in those fast corners because it's dangerous, like they don't want sausage kerbs. Just stay on track, they make mm perfect corners in monaco but can't keep it on track in an oval-like corner.

The Gasly stuff is a nothingburger, they review their own decisions quite quickly as it took them a couple minutes.

I get the frustration, but I'm glad they are enforcing the track limits. The Gasly thing was nothing. He dropped from like 5th to 8th, It didn't knock anyone out.

Look at it another way... imagine that Q3 lap of Leclerc, pushing hard to get on the front row, then Perez comes in behind and beats him by a couple of hundredths but went over the limit to do it. Should Leclerc lose the front row even though he got his time while keeping WITHIN the limit?

No of course he shouldn't lose the front row. Track limits should be enforced. They just need to be enforced swiftly and perfectly. The last two seasons in Austria show that this is not possible in Austria. We either have long delays in announcing the deletion or mistakes.

You may see the Gasly issue as nothing now, but what if a driver burns a new set of tires to make up a lap and crashes as a result of race control mistakenly deleting a lap. Laps being deleted in error should not happen which is why passive terrain controls should be used to enforce track limits. T4, T6 are excellent examples of what this looks like.

[dialtone]

Best thing in this debate is that I had called it on discord. RBR fans going to attack track limits, if nothing else it's predictable.

[Sieper]

Could they install a hawk eye (tennis, in or out) system in a critical corner like this? Is that technically possible? You would know straight away.

[Big Tea]

To me it is akin to hitting the barrier in Monaco or the wall in Canada etc. They know that if they are sure to stay away they are fine, if they test the limits, they may or may not get away with it.
They can judge to a fingers width, so me sure to stay that much out if they do not want to take a risk, if they do, then they know the consequence.

BTW, to me, I prefer the line to be the 'wall' and any part of a tyre touching it is called.

[dialtone]

Could they install a hawk eye (tennis, in or out) system in a critical corner like this? Is that technically possible? You would know straight away.

Difficulty is in high speed cameras are needed. At 60fps the car moves 1 full meter per frame at 200kph.

[codetower]

I get the frustration, but I'm glad they are enforcing the track limits. The Gasly thing was nothing. He dropped from like 5th to 8th, It didn't knock anyone out.

Look at it another way... imagine that Q3 lap of Leclerc, pushing hard to get on the front row, then Perez comes in behind and beats him by a couple of hundredths but went over the limit to do it. Should Leclerc lose the front row even though he got his time while keeping WITHIN the limit?

No of course he shouldn't lose the front row. Track limits should be enforced. They just need to be enforced swiftly and perfectly. The last two seasons in Austria show that this is not possible in Austria. We either have long delays in announcing the deletion or mistakes.

You may see the Gasly issue as nothing now, but what if a driver burns a new set of tires to make up a lap and crashes as a result of race control mistakenly deleting a lap. Laps being deleted in error should not happen which is why passive terrain controls should be used to enforce track limits. T4, T6 are excellent examples of what this looks like.

OK, this I agree with. Maybe I read too quickly (Still under an adrenaline rush after that Q3) I was under the impression you were against the track limit enforcements. Apparently they don't have a better/quicker way to determine if a car is out of play. This is the best we have, what would you suggest?

[dialtone]

I get the frustration, but I'm glad they are enforcing the track limits. The Gasly thing was nothing. He dropped from like 5th to 8th, It didn't knock anyone out.

Look at it another way... imagine that Q3 lap of Leclerc, pushing hard to get on the front row, then Perez comes in behind and beats him by a couple of hundredths but went over the limit to do it. Should Leclerc lose the front row even though he got his time while keeping WITHIN the limit?

No of course he shouldn't lose the front row. Track limits should be enforced. They just need to be enforced swiftly and perfectly. The last two seasons in Austria show that this is not possible in Austria. We either have long delays in announcing the deletion or mistakes.

You may see the Gasly issue as nothing now, but what if a driver burns a new set of tires to make up a lap and crashes as a result of race control mistakenly deleting a lap. Laps being deleted in error should not happen which is why passive terrain controls should be used to enforce track limits. T4, T6 are excellent examples of what this looks like.

OK, this I agree with. Maybe I read too quickly (Still under an adrenaline rush after that Q3) I was under the impression you were against the track limit enforcements. Apparently they don't have a better/quicker way to determine if a car is out of play. This is the best we have, what would you suggest?

He would suggest RBR be exempt by any rule enforcement. If they want to spend $2mil on catering they should do it.

Edit: should clarify this is a joke . I do think however that it's peculiar that track limits are the one thing that is bad and needs to be implemented perfectly and automatically but other rules can be bent when applied to my team.

[AR3-GP]

I get the frustration, but I'm glad they are enforcing the track limits. The Gasly thing was nothing. He dropped from like 5th to 8th, It didn't knock anyone out.

Look at it another way... imagine that Q3 lap of Leclerc, pushing hard to get on the front row, then Perez comes in behind and beats him by a couple of hundredths but went over the limit to do it. Should Leclerc lose the front row even though he got his time while keeping WITHIN the limit?

No of course he shouldn't lose the front row. Track limits should be enforced. They just need to be enforced swiftly and perfectly. The last two seasons in Austria show that this is not possible in Austria. We either have long delays in announcing the deletion or mistakes.

You may see the Gasly issue as nothing now, but what if a driver burns a new set of tires to make up a lap and crashes as a result of race control mistakenly deleting a lap. Laps being deleted in error should not happen which is why passive terrain controls should be used to enforce track limits. T4, T6 are excellent examples of what this looks like.

OK, this I agree with. Maybe I read too quickly (Still under an adrenaline rush after that Q3) I was under the impression you were against the track limit enforcements. Apparently they don't have a better/quicker way to determine if a car is out of play. This is the best we have, what would you suggest?

[organic]

Could they install a hawk eye (tennis, in or out) system in a critical corner like this? Is that technically possible? You would know straight away.

Difficulty is in high speed cameras are needed. At 60fps the car moves 1 full meter per frame at 200kph.

Hawkeye uses (at least) 10 different high performance cameras. Assuming F1 can afford this having multiple cameras each with a good frame rate and great resolution should be sufficient. Not every frame recorded will be synced up with every other camera. So you gather far more information than the limited frame rate of each camera

F1 is more than capable of this sort of setup for a couple of corners at a couple of tracks where this is a persistent problem, should this method of enforcement of track limits be desired

[Sieper]

I think, specifically for a corner like this, it would be great to:

1 be sure. I really couldn’t tell myself in most cases if indeed all 4 wheels were outside the white line at any one time.
2 know it right away. That is much more fair to the drivers affected. You f up, you know, have the most chance to do better.

[dans79]

all kinds of stuff are possible, everything from sensors mounted under the car that can see the white line, to micro cameras. I mean you can by super cheap sensors thats are easily capable of the resolution and framerate needed.

[AR3-GP]

Sensors can fail. I once watched a tennis match where the hawkeye system was "unavailable" due to technical malfunction.

Grass at the edge of the track doesn't fail.

Here are the high speed esses at suzuka:


Here is maggots/becketts



It's really rather elementary and has the added bonus of actually punishing drivers who get it wrong and rewarding those who do not. As it is, the drivers can just brush off their track limit abuse and go for another lap.