2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
CaribouBread
CaribouBread
91
Joined: 29 Mar 2022, 08:37

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

hollus wrote:
03 Mar 2024, 17:36
Quite a few people seem to think that a moaning thread would clear the race and team threads of ranting posts.
That is a worthy goal. Let's give it a try?

A reminder to everyone to still keep it civil and respect forum rules in general. A "moaning" thread is no excuse to get nasty towards others.

Reopened.
I like the concept of 'containment threads' :D =D> Perhaps the team/race threads will cool a bit if you let people release their steam in here and moderate these threads tightly.

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 01:21
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

It is a double edged sword.
People get used to the extremely loose moderation here, start pushing the edges, and then they forget to restrain elsewhere, or animosity spills over.
That's why we normally don't do that. But not too much is lost for trying.
Rivals, not enemies.

User avatar
JordanMugen
82
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

I'm just glad Formula One doesn't have BOP. BOP is awful IMO. You build the best car in sportscar prototype classes then you get slugged with so much weight that you can barely get on the podium. What's the point? :(

Vasseur is confident of closing the gap in a proper engineering competition:
Having said that, I consider this race a good starting point given that compared to a year ago our delay is significantly reduced. We will continue to develop the SF-24 and I am confident that we will often fight for first place.
- Frédéric Vasseur
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fe ... /10582466/

Great stuff!

Leclerc had overheating brakes in Bahrain, while both Mercedes had overheating engines. These are basic miscalculations or car preparation issues that will easily be rectified, adding quite a lot of relative performance.

ScottB
ScottB
4
Joined: 17 Mar 2012, 14:45

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

He might be confident of closing the gap, but presumably, the issue under the way the cap / resource restriction works, Ferrari and others use it up chasing in season updates to close that gap, meanwhile RBR do one update then spend the rest of the year on their next rocket ship...

Definitely don't want BOP, but perhaps revisiting the resource restriction to factor in dominance, gap between the positions etc to try and reign in a team that is very far ahead. F1 claims to want that with it's current setup (Brawn was saying a dominant team would be pulled back ahead of these new rules coming in etc), but it's clear it isn't working, and it's just as likely the same thing happens again in 2026, whether it's still RBR or someone else.

Or abandon that position and accept F1 has spells of dominance, but at the moment the message / ethos and the reality do not sync up.

mendis
mendis
19
Joined: 03 Jul 2022, 16:12

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

Can't FIA experiment with 2025 season by bringing back refueling? Heck, do it this year itself! May be on lower fuel levels, the gaps might be smaller, like we have seen in qualifying. This season is anyway gone. As much as I like Red Bull team, the gap is nauseating now. Credit to the best team, having built such a beast. Rumor has it that they have another major upgrade, expected to add another second!!! I would love to see the young guns like Alonso ( :D ), Charles, Lando, Oscar and Goerge get some wins under their belt. So bring refueling back.

User avatar
franbatista123
0
Joined: 19 Sep 2023, 19:45

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

ScottB wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 12:24
...(Brawn was saying a dominant team would be pulled back ahead of these new rules coming in etc)...
This, for me, is the biggest failure of these regulations. They said they would do something about it and they haven't even showed a hint of wanting to do something.

I'll concede that i am super pessimistic at the moment, i mean who wants to watch 2024 and 2025 knowing the result is pretty much defined? The worst thing is that i honestly believe Red Bull has even more pace in hand than they are showing.

Farnborough
Farnborough
90
Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

ScottB wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 12:24
He might be confident of closing the gap, but presumably, the issue under the way the cap / resource restriction works, Ferrari and others use it up chasing in season updates to close that gap, meanwhile RBR do one update then spend the rest of the year on their next rocket ship...

Definitely don't want BOP, but perhaps revisiting the resource restriction to factor in dominance, gap between the positions etc to try and reign in a team that is very far ahead. F1 claims to want that with it's current setup (Brawn was saying a dominant team would be pulled back ahead of these new rules coming in etc), but it's clear it isn't working, and it's just as likely the same thing happens again in 2026, whether it's still RBR or someone else.

Or abandon that position and accept F1 has spells of dominance, but at the moment the message / ethos and the reality do not sync up.
The cost cap obviously has a control in many respect, but in technical sphere of pure design it's a significantly blunt and cumbersome means of control.

A very good technical idea can cost exactly the same as a very poor one, the difference only seen when it's brought to fulfilment on track.

This is really a best of minds, experience, judgment, compromise and evaluation battle, which will often be won by the most coherence in focus on brutal analysis in outcome.

The supreme conductor, with capable orchestra, can really be seen and especially with some level of parity in spending.

Brawn view of bringing parity is true .... for advancing the average .... seen in how close lap times are across the field. It will never account for truly individual thinking though, in any field of development. It seeks to hold back, not advance. Individual thinking in truest form is never about making something average.

Jdn1327
Jdn1327
1
Joined: 07 Apr 2022, 12:47

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

The question is why only one team have aced these regulations? I mean they even changed their concept this year...seems odd no one has converged to make the field closer. And RB haven't been cheating or skirting the rules...so what's the excuse for other teams?

User avatar
franbatista123
0
Joined: 19 Sep 2023, 19:45

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

Jdn1327 wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 12:52
The question is why only one team have aced these regulations? I mean they even changed their concept this year...seems odd no one has converged to make the field closer. And RB haven't been cheating or skirting the rules...so what's the excuse for other teams?
When you are far ahead like Red Bull you can start thinking about next year far earlier and maintaining that advantage year-on-year despite less ATR. Less wind tunnel actually isn't a disadvantage when you have so much time to focus more on ideas with high quality. The massive update that they have for race 7 allegedly probably means that from then on they will be 100% focused on next year, while everyone will try and balance resources on in season updates + next year.

Rikhart
Rikhart
18
Joined: 10 Feb 2009, 20:21

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

franbatista123 wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 12:39
ScottB wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 12:24
...(Brawn was saying a dominant team would be pulled back ahead of these new rules coming in etc)...
This, for me, is the biggest failure of these regulations. They said they would do something about it and they haven't even showed a hint of wanting to do something.

I'll concede that i am super pessimistic at the moment, i mean who wants to watch 2024 and 2025 knowing the result is pretty much defined? The worst thing is that i honestly believe Red Bull has even more pace in hand than they are showing.
Right, so where would it start, and stop? Imagine a team wins 2 races in a row, would that you say be enough to neuter them? Or maybe add 1kg per second they finish ahead in a given race?

Can you see how stupid that is?

rijtuig
rijtuig
0
Joined: 14 Oct 2022, 15:19

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

Lol, I remember FIA saying stuff like "all teams with their cars will finally catch up. It is too early to blablablabla".

rijtuig
rijtuig
0
Joined: 14 Oct 2022, 15:19

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

FIA f'ed up. In the land of the blind, Newey is the only one who as a clear understanding. If that was not the case - explain me how it is possible that so many teams were troubled by porpoising?

FIA gave this on a silver platter to RBR. We've seen how many times Merc innovations were called back. Haven't seen any with RB.

User avatar
franbatista123
0
Joined: 19 Sep 2023, 19:45

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

Rikhart wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 13:48
franbatista123 wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 12:39
ScottB wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 12:24
...(Brawn was saying a dominant team would be pulled back ahead of these new rules coming in etc)...
This, for me, is the biggest failure of these regulations. They said they would do something about it and they haven't even showed a hint of wanting to do something.

I'll concede that i am super pessimistic at the moment, i mean who wants to watch 2024 and 2025 knowing the result is pretty much defined? The worst thing is that i honestly believe Red Bull has even more pace in hand than they are showing.
Right, so where would it start, and stop? Imagine a team wins 2 races in a row, would that you say be enough to neuter them? Or maybe add 1kg per second they finish ahead in a given race?

Can you see how stupid that is?
I actually agree with you, i don't have any solution for solving this. I would expect that someone who designs the rules would, though.

101FlyingDutchman
101FlyingDutchman
16
Joined: 27 Feb 2019, 12:01

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

rijtuig wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 13:56
FIA f'ed up. In the land of the blind, Newey is the only one who as a clear understanding. If that was not the case - explain me how it is possible that so many teams were troubled by porpoising?

FIA gave this on a silver platter to RBR. We've seen how many times Merc innovations were called back. Haven't seen any with RB.
Sure, it’s all one great conspiracy. Next stop, UFOs are really extraterrestrial 👽

As to Merc innovations that were called back: DAS wasn’t stopped, it was outlawed a year later but they were allowed to race it for the season. Didn’t have any material impact on their season or the next.
Anything else?

TD39 was called for by Toto to nerf RB19 except it didn’t…

Rikhart
Rikhart
18
Joined: 10 Feb 2009, 20:21

Re: 2024 Season Bickering and Moaning

Post

franbatista123 wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 14:01
Rikhart wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 13:48
franbatista123 wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 12:39


This, for me, is the biggest failure of these regulations. They said they would do something about it and they haven't even showed a hint of wanting to do something.

I'll concede that i am super pessimistic at the moment, i mean who wants to watch 2024 and 2025 knowing the result is pretty much defined? The worst thing is that i honestly believe Red Bull has even more pace in hand than they are showing.
Right, so where would it start, and stop? Imagine a team wins 2 races in a row, would that you say be enough to neuter them? Or maybe add 1kg per second they finish ahead in a given race?

Can you see how stupid that is?
I actually agree with you, i don't have any solution for solving this. I would expect that someone who designs the rules would, though.
I mean they tried, but you can't put in failsafes for when a team is just massively better than the others. They have had a lot less wind tunnel time and simulation time for 3 years, yet here we are. Personally, I blame the other teams, not the ones doing a good job.

Just consider the race we just had, almost everyone had some sort of issue, except the team that has dominated for 2 years now, the rest needs to step up.