Strange going-ons at Red Bull

[agungn51]

It has come out that Mark Webber was instructed into fuel saving mode mode just before the "incident" with Vettel in Turkey. There are also rumors that Vettel was instructed to go "full power" mode just before said accident. There are also rumors that there is a rift in the team brewing between the english speaking members and the german speaking members.

Any other team that wanted a driver to step aside for another would at least have a code or some kind of radio contact to prevent the multi layered stupidity that occurred in Turkey, wouldn't they?

So all this begs the question of this pole ..

[WhiteBlue]

Why don't we use the facts that were provided by the team here. I don't think that Horner would obviously lie in such a situation to the press. .... I do not see a reason why we should not believe what Horner told us. It correlates with all other facts and what the drivers said.

Excuse me but why would you believe anything that Horner said about this event.

Because the facts as given fit the situation and lying to the public would be very risky for a guy in Horner's position. If he does this the F1 press would crucify him. It is too easy to find sources in the team who would give you the low down on the internal bickering, I bet.

So why don't you take a deep breath, slow down and have a look at the facts.

[Richard]

Webber's finger picture is clearly not from this season, look at his overalls.

[BreezyRacer]

Webber's finger picture is clearly not from this season, look at his overalls.

Yes, but it's quite fitting!

[Pup]

Why don't we use the facts that were provided by the team here. I don't think that Horner would obviously lie in such a situation to the press. He said that both men started on exactly the same fuel load and that on lap 40 Vettel had 1 kg more fuel on board due to often running in the slip stream while Webber was leading the race.

1kg is worth about a third of a lap at Istanbul. Hardly enough to justify having your drivers on different strategies, imo.

[agungn51]

Webber's finger picture is clearly not from this season, look at his overalls.

Yes, but it's quite fitting!

just 4 fun

[segedunum]

I don't buy that from Horner about Mark Webber supposedly switching into fuel saving mode. It isn't backup up by the lap times around the incident. Something happened with Vettel that allowed him to go faster in a short space of time:

Webber:

36 1:30.511
37 1:30.334
38 1:30.406
39 1:30.626
40 1:35.317

Vettel:

36 1:30.638
37 1:30.181
38 1:30.190
39 1:30.611

Hamilton:

36 1:30.524
37 1:30.425
38 1:30.357
39 1:30.522
40 1:30.865

Button:

36 1:30.831
37 1:30.382
38 1:30.251
39 1:30.369
40 1:31.467

I've highlighted the suspect laps in bold. Look at the laps times of Webber, Hamilton and Button. They're pretty much maintaining the status quo. All of a sudden on laps 37 and 38 Vettel finds half a second on each from lap 36 and is glued to the back of Webber's gearbox. You could visibly see him gaining on Webber and pulling away from Hamilton. None of what Red Bull has said adds up and I fail to see how they didn't see this coming, if what they say is true - and I doubt that.

[segedunum]

There are also rumors that there is a rift in the team brewing between the english speaking members and the german speaking members.

That's not a surprise. The same thing will end up happening at Mercedes. Alas for the Germans, without the English speakers the team is totally worthless. Adrian Newey left Williams and McLaren to get away from such politics.

It would be better if they got shot of both Webber and Vettel if they can for next year and start afresh, otherwise this could implode the team. Even amongst the 'English' side of the team they know that Mark is a hangover from when the team was Jaguar and came as part of the Renault engine deal courtesy of Flavio Briatore. He's not the team's choice. Everyone knows Vettel will end up at Mercedes at some point, and it might as well be sooner rather than later.

[BreezyRacer]

There are also rumors that there is a rift in the team brewing between the english speaking members and the german speaking members.

That's not a surprise. The same thing will end up happening at Mercedes. Alas for the Germans, without the English speakers the team is totally worthless. Adrian Newey left Williams and McLaren to get away from such politics.

It would be better if they got shot of both Webber and Vettel if they can for next year and start afresh, otherwise this could implode the team. Even amongst the 'English' side of the team they know that Mark is a hangover from when the team was Jaguar and came as part of the Renault engine deal courtesy of Flavio Briatore. He's not the team's choice. Everyone knows Vettel will end up at Mercedes at some point, and it might as well be sooner rather than later.

Interesting insights .. so from their point of view it's germany vs the world, or am I missing it?

[segedunum]

Interesting insights .. so from their point of view it's germany vs the world, or am I missing it?

They could be German and Russian or sky blue and pink, that's just the way things work. The point is that there is a split, and a geographical one with some national pride attached is not easy to bridge. That's pretty much why McLaren didn't allow themselves to get taken over by Mercedes or Williams by BMW. In that sense I think they were both astute enough to see what would be coming.

[WhiteBlue]

Why don't we use the facts that were provided by the team here. I don't think that Horner would obviously lie in such a situation to the press. He said that both men started on exactly the same fuel load and that on lap 40 Vettel had 1 kg more fuel on board due to often running in the slip stream while Webber was leading the race.

1kg is worth about a third of a lap at Istanbul. Hardly enough to justify having your drivers on different strategies, imo.

The drivers were not on different strategies, Pup. There were on exactly the same strategy. Webber reached the switch point to fuel saving one or two laps earlier because he ran in free air at the front while Vettel was slip streaming most of the race. Please read DC's comment which said the same.

In the meantime there are additional comments in the German language from Helmut Marko. I will give a translation further down. But first some other interesting details.

According to the article neither Marko nor Horner had a direct line to the drivers like Jean Todt used to have at Ferrari. This is why a team order or a request for team tactics had to be made through the race engineer (in Webber's case Pilbeam). RBR have now decided to install such a line for future use.

According to Marko team tactics were actually in place at RBR on Sunday in Turkey. Pilbeam was tasked to tell Webber that he was not supposed to fight the faster Vettel but conserve his car. It means implicitly that Vettel was actually told he would get preference. And here is what Marko said:

Der Renningenieur hat den Auftrag bekommen, ihm zu erklären, was los ist. Also dass Vettel nicht ihn attackiert, sondern dieses Tempo gehen muss, damit er nicht von Hamilton überholt wird.

Webber sollte sich nicht gegen den schnelleren Vettel wehren, sondern sein Auto schonen, um dann die Attacken von Hamilton abwehren zu können. Warum (Webber nicht informiert wurde), ist bis heute nicht ganz klar. Dieser Ingenieur hatte einfach einen Blackout, er hat nicht richtig reagiert.

The race engineer (Pilbeam) received the order to explain to him (Webber) what was going on. To explain that Vettel was not attacking him but needed to go faster to avoid being passed by Hamilton.

Webber was supposed not to fight the faster Vettel but save his car to fight Hamilton. It is still not entirely clear today why (Webber wasn't informed). This engineer simply had a black out, he did not do the right thing.

The way I see this Marko and Horner had agreed to issue team order although they cannot publicly say they did. It is obvious that a short time fuel advantage for Vettel was supposed to be used as the excuse for Webber to let him pass. Of course this isn't a qualified reason in most people's view as the fuel advantage would have lasted only one or two laps.

Pilbeam obviously developed a hearing handicap which was unfortunate for Sebastian as his team mate wasn't told to let him pass. It explains why Vettel thought he could push for the racing line on lap 40. It would have been a good way to mask that team order had been given.

[donskar]

@WB.
Thank you for the translation.

Question: Do you (or anyone else) know if the Pilbeam mentioned is Mike Pilbeam?? (ex-BRM designer)

[BreezyRacer]

Well WhiteBlue, that statement by Helmut makes it pretty damn clear that they were favoring Vettel then.

Maybe the message to Webber was garbled or perhaps the engineer missed it's meaning due the disbelief of what was said.

That kind of thing can happen when the message seems to come from a parallel universe ..

So let's see .. " we're running 1 and 2, the lap times of the top 4 are stable .. I sure like the way that young chap Vettel holds a can of Red Bull and that knit cap is the bomb .. let's shift the order for the good of the team. All hail the mighty can of Red Bull!"

[WhiteBlue]

@WB.
Thank you for the translation.

Question: Do you (or anyone else) know if the Pilbeam mentioned is Mike Pilbeam?? (ex-BRM designer)

No he is called Ciaron Pilbeam in the article.

[WhiteBlue]

Well WhiteBlue, that statement by Helmut makes it pretty damn clear that they were favoring Vettel then.

Yes, I do agree it looks that way from all the information we have now. The thing we do not know is why. Some would say that Vettel is more marketable for Red Bull. I will watch this charade and find out what really is behind this.

Were there any team orders given for Sebastian to pass Mark?
"Neither driver was given any instruction to change position. There are no team orders within Red Bull Racing, other than that the drivers should race each other with respect."

What do you think would have happened if Mark and Sebastian hadn’t collided?
"Our priority as a team is to finish first and second, irrelevant of the order. The Turkish GP was the closest race of probably the last twelve months with significant pressure coming from both of the McLarens. Sebastian’s pace improved from lap 37 onwards and he appeared to be the faster of the two Red Bull drivers. Had the incident not have happened, I believe we would have achieved a one-two finish and a maximum score for the second race in succession.

This is just the usual defense because team orders are illegal in F1. It is clear though that Pilbeams was supposed to "explain" the team policy to Webber. The team policy was obviously to have the temporarily faster driver in front.