Mercedes GP W02

[dren]

The ebd is still an improvement on the exhaust mounted midships.

The glaring problem is downforce or lack of it. I don't know how this can be overcome with minuscule tweaks to the front wing. Huge change is required if they are to challenge next year, but I'm hoping lessons learned under bell with the w02 will bear fruits next year with a podium challenger.

Yeah, when I said EBD I meant midship exhaust, which is what this car was designed around.

[ringo]

@ Mr S

The W03 will be behind the RB8 for certain.

But its what they decide to extract from the W02 and use on the W03 that will be telling.

You can only extract lemon juice from lemons. The W02 simply is not a good foundation to extract any useful information, thus the reason why they are not developing the car further. A good car can be used to test future parts and give good feedback.
I wouldn't use a car like this to test and develope another unless it's it dos and don'ts testing.
Merceded biggest proble is that the car is a dud. Just not good enough to be of any use to the following year and that vicious cycle will continue.

I think the pictures of the RB7 floor at Monza may help teams understand a little of where Red Bull is getting its grip from.

The RB floor looks pretty basic. They can only know where the grip is coming from if they copy the redbull.

All we can hope for is to see the gap reduced. But I expect them to be no closer than 0.7 seconds come the start of next year, not with the W02 being so weak on aero intensive tracks and insufficient data to bring forward and utilise effectively on its predecessor.

Next years car wont be better than this years RB7, muchless mp426, i'd imagine. So it's a matter of how much will redbull improve on the current car.

[ringo]

On the contrary. Mclaren don't have any rear grip.
Redbull has it all.
The floor is basic, because of what the rules allow.
There are a few curves to mess with, but that's about it.

Mercedes need to make a RB clone, then analyze it next year. If they don't they'll be forever lost, like ferrari and their push rod car.
Sounds crude and desperate but Mercedes are in that position.

[wunderkind]

On the contrary. Mclaren don't have any rear grip.
Redbull has it all.
The floor is basic, because of what the rules allow.
There are a few curves to mess with, but that's about it.

Mercedes need to make a RB clone, then analyze it next year. If they don't they'll be forever lost, like ferrari and their push rod car.
Sounds crude and desperate but Mercedes are in that position.

I agree, cloning the Red Bull is the way forward for Mercedes GP. I think many of the top teams would have cloned a Red Bull in their CFD programs by now to see how they can match them.

[gridwalker]

I'm getting pretty damned bored with all of the calls for teams to clone Red Bull; it isn't because it would be a bad idea per-se, but because where would be the point in a technical forum for a sport where every entrant is a reproduction of the same ideas??? This place would be pretty dead if all of the teams just churned out carbon copies.

For the sport to be interesting, someone has to lose. Red bull won't have it their way forever and it will take some original thinking to beat them as RB will allways be ahead of the curve when you're trying to play in THEIR ballpark.

Merc need to do some original thinking to steal some time where RB haven't found it : there is no way Merc can out-Newey Newey himself.

[MIKEY_!]

Is there any particular areas where the RBR is behind the opposition (other than a little top speed) that could be exploited?

[kalinka]

I'm getting pretty damned bored with all of the calls for teams to clone Red Bull; it isn't because it would be a bad idea per-se, but because where would be the point in a technical forum for a sport where every entrant is a reproduction of the same ideas??? This place would be pretty dead if all of the teams just churned out carbon copies.

Me too, big +1 for gridwalker.

[raymondu999]

Is there any particular areas where the RBR is behind the opposition (other than a little top speed) that could be exploited?

Maybe the law of diminishing returns then?

[kalinka]

Is there any particular areas where the RBR is behind the opposition (other than a little top speed) that could be exploited?

I think their strongest area is their weakest too. It's qualifying. The whole concept of RBR is to be ahead in qualy. It's too late now, but maybe it's a good idea for next years cars. If somenone could consistetly finish ahead of them, they would be in big problem. No doubt they would be in very good position in championship without the qualy success too, but it would be a much tighter race than now.
Sadly, it's unlikely for MGP to succeed doing this either now or next year IMHO.

[MIKEY_!]

true the gap is just to big even Ferrari and mclaren will be lucky to do it

[Mr.S]

Mechanical side. Mclaren & maybe even Ferrari are stronger than Red Bull on that side. Monaco,Mclaren seemed strong,as also in Hungary. Ferrari also seemed very close to Red Bull.

Red Bull car is very high on aerodynamics,the whole build to maximise the downforce.They are quite good in the straightline department,better than Mclaren.There wings are shorter,DRS more effective,Mclaren run a massive amount of wing to get that downforce significantly hurting their top speed.

[atanatizante]

1. Regarding DF situation, IMHO next year RB will be the biggest loser, because knowing that the most important factor nowadays is the DF, their whole philosophy was down to create the highest DF figures. So they designed a car around the EBD concept which btw. is the best but the most important thing is the fact that is the most effective system on the entire grid because is generating the highest DF of all cars out there! Therefore from all the cars RB is having the highest % of their performance down to EBD so that’s way they will lose the biggest performance next year. MB bet on a midship EBD philosophy and tailored a car with a SWB because this was the optimum configuration for this idea. Unfortunately we know now that it was a wrong bet, but what is making me optimistic for 2012 regarding MB is the fact that they have one of the best rear traction WITHOUT EBD SYSTEM, maybe the best of all. That`s way I think they could be the biggest winner next year because they don`t heavily rely on EBD in their final performance …

2. Here in Singapore they are bringing big updates (and the last ones for this year) regarding a much more sculpted sidepodes and a tighter rear-end, coupled with a new floor and a modified diffuser. They also have for this event a small alteration to the front wing and a single level radiator system which was run by Rosberg and that`s why he ran with the big bulb on the air box. This is in fact a larger cool duct in order to compensate the deficit in air cooling. These days all the teams are running their updates mostly in FP1 and unfortunately with a shortened session they didn`t run them properly, as Michael confirmed afterwards in the press conference after FP2.

3. It seems that the good results in the last races was due to the new simulator, because now they are more focus on race set-up and the results are accordingly with the simulator runs, as some guys are saying on other forums. Also Michael`s better form is related to this one, don`t you think, because of his last performances and the optimistic statements regarding the future?

[ringo]

I'm getting pretty damned bored with all of the calls for teams to clone Red Bull; it isn't because it would be a bad idea per-se, but because where would be the point in a technical forum for a sport where every entrant is a reproduction of the same ideas??? This place would be pretty dead if all of the teams just churned out carbon copies.

From a scientific and an engineering point of view, they need to copy the car and do an investigation. I wouldn't care about boredom if i were in mercedes shoes. The fans wont care about that if the W03 can challenge for wins.

For the sport to be interesting, someone has to lose. Red bull won't have it their way forever and it will take some original thinking to beat them as RB will allways be ahead of the curve when you're trying to play in THEIR ballpark.

So you are saying Mercedes should purposely ignore the RB dominance keep their heads down and build crap again next year.
There is no original thinking that can beat what cannot be bettered. The RB is the optimum solution for thes regs. I've been harping on that from the beginning of the season like a lunatic, and so far they have been the fastest at every track. There are a million ways to skin a cat, but Redbull simply have the best way, and it cannot be bettered.
Judging from this year and last year, Originality from Mercedes would be the biggest risk to their success. They have shown not to have the capability to develop; having used the same wing for 3 years, so i don't know where this originality will come from, much less to beat what is an optimum solution.

Merc need to do some original thinking to steal some time where RB haven't found it : there is no way Merc can out-Newey Newey himself.

You'll be waiting in vain. The point is not to out Newey Newey. You cant want to beat redbull just like that. You at least need to come close to them, right behind them, so you can analyze and understand.
Being original you will still be ignorant to what makes a redbull strong at 19 out of 19 tracks. You will miss the boat.
Copying/ Revers engineering is a common practice and has its benefits. Mercedes fundamentally have no clue about building a quick car. Copying would reveal a lot to them.
Copy for 2012 and build on that for 2013 with originality.

[Pierce89]

[...]
It might be close to the "optimum solution" for these regs but it's not optimized yet or they wouldn't need to bring updates. Besides, you show me the "optimum solution" that can't be improved upon, and I'll show you the Holy Grail, the Arc of the Covenant, and Atlantis all rolled in to one nice neat package

[ringo]

[...]
It might be close to the "optimum solution" for these regs but it's not optimized yet or they wouldn't need to bring updates.

So merceds is somehow going to manage to do this from out of nowhere?
redbull's updates are like cake decorations. The car is basically the same thing from the begining of the season. It barely has few flick ups here and there, with maybe a few changes on the mechanical side and ergonomics.
They never had big step like ferrari or mclaren. The car is the same thing.

Besides, you show me the "optimum solution" that can't be improved upon, and I'll show you the Holy Grail, the Arc of the Covenant, and Atlantis all rolled in to one nice neat package

Ever heard of an asymptote? Redbull is approaching infinity with these regs, no pun intended.

You show me how Mercedes can build a better car than Redbull with "originality".

You don't get what i am saying to you?

If the square root of 4 is +2 or -2. And there is no changing that.

You are telling me somebody is going to be "original" and find the square root of another number and get 2.

It's just not possible.

At end of year, i'll reveal why redbull is quickest. So far i'll enjoy the babbling taking place about other teams trying to be "original" and getting the same results.