toyota B spec

[f1.redbaron]

So basically Toyota's top management are imposing some things without having much confidence in their engineers and without taking into account the state of development of a project at that time.

No matter what amount of money is invested, they will never become a topteam if such decisions keep coming.

Briatore and Renault are exampls to look at for the team. Flavio is given full responsibility and fired/hired several people soon after being appointed head of the F1 team.

To me, this Kaizen stuff is just sold thin air that is popular in Japanese industry. They have been known for weird methods, but after all their economy collapsed too about 5 years ago. You don't hear Renault or McLaren talk about any special business strategy do you?

All right, I've gotta step in and defend my team. ..

Kaizen, while an integral part of the Toyota Production System (TPS), is nothing more than a small part of it. It is something that works well in the auto-industry, but it has very little or no relevance to F1.

All kaizen means is that nothing is perfect, no matter how good you make it. So, how do you incorporate that into F1...by saying that even a championship winning car can still be improved? Well, yeah! But that is as obvious as stating that we're in a month of May.

That ideology will never help you design a better car. At best, such mindset will only make the designer less stubborn in a way that he will be able to come to terms that his car is not perfect...but it will, in no way, help you overcome any kinds of problems.

------

Onto the next subject...the collapse of the Japanese economy. I agree, and I know exactly what you're reffering to. But, make no mistake...that same economy is on the rise. The reason why they had those problems is because of the way it was structured (actually, believe it or not, it was not much different than today's F1).

I can tell you something else that may help your argument a little...Toyota went through bankruptcy a total of three times. So does that mean that is a bad company? Well, let's see - last year it surpassed Wal-Mart to become the biggest company in the world (past British-Petrol, Shell and Exxon-Mobil which are in top 5). Last year, they posted profits of over 12 billion dollars (despite several major, multi-billion dollar investments world-wide) - these profits are a billion dollars higher than last year's.

But I will agree with you on one point...they don't stand a chance unless they switch to Renault/McLaren type management. F1, while a business, is totally different that just regular auto-sales.

Cheers.

P.S. To really understand what I meant when I said about how Kaizen will have a very limited success on the evential outcome in F1, check out these books:

1. Toyota Production System - Taiichi Ohno
2. Study of the Toyota Production System from Industrial Engineering Viewpoint - Shigeo Shingo

[tf1]

Why do people assume that things are being imposed by the Japanese management? Have you actually worked on the team? Gascoyne was given free reign for over two full years and has produced basically nothing. Anyone can see that the only reason Toyota happened to get points last year was because the other teams just couldn't make it to the end of the race. It was the same as the year before except that more cars were unreliable at the beginning of the year. It was actually a negative thing to be 4th because the team does not get a 3rd car in the Friday practice this year.

Gascoyne said so many times that aero was the problem. For several years running. Yet it was always clear that the Toyota is down on mechanical grip as well (look at the Monoco races). He was supposedly an "aero genius". So why couldn't he come up with his own ideas? Even the zero keel is basically a copy of the Mclaren from the start of last year. I would like really see proof that Gascoyne is a genius in any sense. He may be a decent manager, but anyone can lead a group of good people to amazing things. His role was to get that group together and make it happen. And I should point out, he was paid VERY handsomely to do so. In the end, his did not produce results and Toyota is under heavy pressure from the board to not just win a race or two but become a true title contender. Given that the TF107 design is being fixed in many ways by this time, it is critical to get a non performing "leader" out of the way. I eagerly await how he performs at his next position.

As for dissing the team principal... Did you even read the bio? If you have ever worked at a large company, you should have an idea what it takes to get onto the board of directors at a company like Toyota. He is a large part of the reason why Toyota is even contesting in F1 despite the lack of results so far. He is far from clueless regarding racing.

[f1.redbaron]

Why do people assume that things are being imposed by the Japanese management? Have you actually worked on the team? Gascoyne was given free reign for over two full years and has produced basically nothing. Anyone can see that the only reason Toyota happened to get points last year was because the other teams just couldn't make it to the end of the race. It was the same as the year before except that more cars were unreliable at the beginning of the year. It was actually a negative thing to be 4th because the team does not get a 3rd car in the Friday practice this year.

Gascoyne said so many times that aero was the problem. For several years running. Yet it was always clear that the Toyota is down on mechanical grip as well (look at the Monoco races). He was supposedly an "aero genius". So why couldn't he come up with his own ideas? Even the zero keel is basically a copy of the Mclaren from the start of last year. I would like really see proof that Gascoyne is a genius in any sense. He may be a decent manager, but anyone can lead a group of good people to amazing things. His role was to get that group together and make it happen. And I should point out, he was paid VERY handsomely to do so. In the end, his did not produce results and Toyota is under heavy pressure from the board to not just win a race or two but become a true title contender. Given that the TF107 design is being fixed in many ways by this time, it is critical to get a non performing "leader" out of the way. I eagerly await how he performs at his next position.

As for dissing the team principal... Did you even read the bio? If you have ever worked at a large company, you should have an idea what it takes to get onto the board of directors at a company like Toyota. He is a large part of the reason why Toyota is even contesting in F1 despite the lack of results so far. He is far from clueless regarding racing.

I don't know if I agree with some of your statements.

First, TF105 did NOT perform so well only because others were struggling. TF105 was a good car...not a championship winning one, but a podium contender.

Also when you mentioned Toyota's single keel as a rip-off of Mclaren's MP4-20, yes, you're right, but then again, in how many different ways can you design a keel-lees car. Besides, even if it was nothing more than a copy, keep in mind that that is the Toyota way (well, not officially, anyways). Toyota and Lexus had based their entire philosophy of building cars on improving the existing models.

Take a look at how the Lexus' LS series had started. It was nothing more than a copy of the Mercedes' S-Class. And, yet, it was made better simply by doing a lot of reverse engineering. Yeah, it's not fair, but then again, neither is life. Many "enthusiasts" believe that Lexus is a pale copy and that they have no life, no tradition...but, then again, I would rather sit in my lifeless car and drive it around enjoying superior quality, luxury, etc., all while not having to worry whether it's going to break down or not.

But, I digress. Going back to Gascoyne...I think the problem was that he wasn't given too much of a freedom. And he hated Toyota for that. Everything he did, he had to get is approved by the board of directors - and what do they know about building race cars? It's as simple as that. That same board of directors will make that company very profitable and successful (as they already had) but they don't know anything about racing.

Speaking of the board of directors, if you look back at that site, check the name that appears next to Team Principal (right hand side). Somebody wrote in Larry Flint instead of Tomita...and we all know that Flint is not...well...the guy who runs Toyota's F1.

Cheers

[West]

So Tomita isn't the guy in the wheelchair?

[NickT]

I work with a lot of Japanese companies and spend a lot of time out there. Their attention to detail is mind numbing, but also very limiting as they get so lost in the detail that they miss the big picture

We have put excellent demonstrations and production trials together, our equipment significantly out performed all of the competition was competitively priced and the engineers and production guys loved it. To everyone concerned it looks like a no brainer. Then we find the equipent that came 3rd in the trial gets installed

Their management systems are very hierarchical and this can seem increadibly stiffling, with lots of meetings, almost micromanagemental, particularly to Westerners. This isn't sour grapes on my part, yes its very frustrating but if you work in Japan you have to accept it.

But imagine you are a top F1 manager/designer with proven success and you are trying to build a dynamic flexible team with the ability to respond to the ever changing F1 environment. You need a level of automony and freedom to make the necessary changes to succeed but then you get hit by Japanese management its detailitus and micro management its little wonder Mike left

[janus]

i tkink nickT is absolutly right just remenber they change from michelin to brigestone and the only people thatknow about that decision was the top boys that wy the car had two suspension mount point .only in the tf106b that change to 1.

they dont give space and trust to the engenier to the job they are so afraid of gettting wrong that is one metting after the other.and the stop not doing anything tu much talk and little work done.

They have to star taking risk and decisions if they get is wrong fix it if they get it right good.

in the suspension is has better to stick to um option and get ist wrong and then fix it ,than be stuck in the middle and lose 6 race do decide on one type,and look s like the gain of the new tf106b is minimal.............6 races to the garbage e think red bull whilliams em bmw say to toyota....thanks for being so stupid

[f1.redbaron]

We have put excellent demonstrations and production trials together, our equipment significantly out performed all of the competition was competitively priced and the engineers and production guys loved it. To everyone concerned it looks like a no brainer. Then we find the equipent that came 3rd in the trial gets installed

To somebody watching from the sidelines, such an act may seem - well, let's call a spade, a spade - idiotic! But I can assure you that there are reasons why they do that.

Without going into the specifics (partly because I'm not familiar with the details of your case), it is very likely that the move was a financial one. You see, while your equipment comes at a "reasonable cost", the company they bought the equipment from will, most likely, belong to them...

So, in effect, they kill two birds with one stone. They keep the money in-house, while providing the revenues (which stimulates growth) for their other company.

[NickT]

The company that won the contract was a middle eastern company not Japanese, but you are probably right about the financial situation, although it is more likely to be a personal fianance arrangement to help board members make their decision, our price was more competetive than the eventual winner. But that is another story, so getting back on topic I found this that pretty much confirms what we have been discussing.....

Kazuo Okamoto is the head of the Toyota's Research and Development and an executive vice-president and member of the board. He is coming up to 40 years of service with the company.

"There is no denying the huge contribution that Mike brought to the team," he says, "particularly the podiums last year but looking towards the future our aim is for everyone to get together to support Formula 1 victory and to share in that victory and if that is our purpose we have to say that the organisation we have now compared to that which we had during Mike's tenure is something that TMG decided is better."

But what about the philosophy?

"When a car company has to make big decisions each company has a different way of arriving at that decision. We all do things differently. I think the same thing applies to Formula 1. There can be many ways to a victory and there can be new ways of approaching it, so we are not too worried that departing from conventional thinking is a threat to us."

So as you can see Mike's philosophy brought podiums, but senior management wanted a different philosophy and Toyota are sliding back down the grid again, no wonder Mike is happily taking a sabatical. I guess he will be gardening again, like Adrian did when he left Williams, and putting together the design for 2007 or 2008 that will beat his former employers.

You can read the whole article at http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft16912.html

[tf1]

Toyota's management definitely has a heavy hand in general. But Gascoyne had a very free hand until near the end. I'm sorry but the guy is just not the genius that some of the board members here seem to make him out to be. I would still like someone to point out things that were Gascoyne's direct influence that were originated by him. The TF105B was authorized because it was clear that the TF105 was not the champion maker it was supposed to be and believe me, that was not a cheap endeavor. It forced Toyota to have three cars in development simultaneously at one point (tf105, tf105b, tf106). Did Mr Gascoyne's ability to burn Toyota money make a difference? Not really.

I still don't think the 2005 season was a representation of the competitiveness of the car. If you look at the races, the only reason Toyota was ever on the podium was due to failures of the car in front of them. Did you ever see one of the toyota drivers executing a brilliant pass on a top class driver? Not once. Fine, it's hard to pass in F1 these days, but that doesn't stop Alonso and the other drivers typically up on the podium from passing those on the same lap as him.

The change to bridgestone was both corporate and strategic reasoning. SInce Michelin was pulling out anyways, and a tire switch is a big deal that usual takes at least half a season to work out, doing it in 2006 makes sense. Why? Remember what is happening in 2007? A Toyota sponsored F1 race at Fuji Speedway. Guess which race is probably the single most important race in the next two years? But hey there's Mr G still bitching about the aero properties of HIS car. The one where he had absolute full control over the design. Most teams only build one car with maybe one major update in a season. In 2005, Toyota had to put out no less than 5 cars with fairly major differences : tf104b, tf105, Tf105b, tf105c (the one that had the v8 that ran in winter testing) and tf106. Guess who said that those were necessary. You think it was the fabled Japanese Toyota management that supposedly run every single detail? Hey maybe Mr G will get lucky and all the good teams will suck next year? I don't think Toyota could take that risk because the tf107 design is already getting fixed in many critical ways. So I think we'll see. I don't think Toyota can do any worse than with Gascoyne at the technical helm. Pascal is so much better in so many ways it isn't even a comparison. The only thing I am worried about is that Toyota didn't cut Gascoyne out early enough.

I checked the link before and it said Mr Tomita's name just as I expected. I definitely didn't see the reference to Larry Flint there when I followed the link before....

Janus: sorry I don't understand what you mean by the car had two suspension mount points that changed to one... Also, I agree that the TF106B is not a huge gain over the 106. Again, guess who was responsible for that? I truly cannot wait to see if he can get back in and if he does how that team does.

NickT: What did you expect him to say? We hired this idiot and after paying him several million euros a year we finally realized that he didn't know what he was doing so we fired him. Unfortunately, Toyota isn't like Minardi and can't just say the truth. As a result, the press releases are going to be quite mundane. Of course the team is better than when Mike got there. Notice he didn't say thanks to Mike. He said just that during his tenure (i.e. merely the time he was physically present) the organization at TMG got better.

I don't know how many of you actually have worked for a large Fortune 100 type company, but they all make seemingly ridiculous decisions based on things that us peons don't even have a clue about. I used to work for a large US company and was involved in a selection process for a very large order of pc's. After a thorough technical evaluation that took about a year because every frickin location had to give input, we finally had a clear decision on who the order should go to and what that config should be. But lo and behold, we got some completely different configuration from the worst vendor evaluated due to some CIO wannabe who decided that her configuration was better. So believe me, it is something that happens at big companies because of the way that they create miniature kingdoms that can't exist at smaller ones.

[NickT]

Hmmm... interesting point of view

Mike Gasgoine already had established his credentials at Renault before he joined Toyota. The work he and Pat Simmons did laid the foundations to Renault’s continued success today. When MG joined Toyota he inherited a lot of problems, a lot of people working hard but getting no were and he focused that hard work and moved Toyota forward. You only have to look at last years results. I am surprised you rubbished them so dismissively, yes they may have inherited a few points but they were on the pace at times and their qualifying performances were usually pretty good, certainly better that they have been before or since for that matter.

As for burning cash, Toyota has and is still doing a pretty good job of that themselves. Mike on the other hand has always worked on much tighter budgets and learnt which areas of a car's development produce the results on the track for the money he had to invest, even at Renault who have a significantly smaller budget than Toyota.

Yes he may have been given a free hand for the design of the 106 but to then have senior management change the tyre supplier so late in the design stage really was a recipe for disaster. I am sorry TF1 you will have to accept that Toyota had its best season ever with Mike with lots of points and some podiums, but since they tied him down and forced the Bridgestone tyres on the team Toyota have plummeted back to the lower midfield.

I suspect the real reason Mike probably didn’t fit in was his personality, he is fairly direct and to the point, this works in the West but with Toyota’s Japanese management it does not allow them to save face.

The definition of madness: Doing the same thing day after day and expecting a different result.

Toyota’s style of management is fantastic for production vehicles, but not F1 cars. Without a significant change in the way they approach and run their F1 team they will never reach the front of the grid, maybe that is why they are negotiating to supply their excellent engines to Williams for 3 years at a nominal cost

[f1.redbaron]

Nick T:

You'd be surprised just how many little companies are owned by the big Japanese companies. Toyota's Just-in-Time philosophy (parts arrive off the truck (or whatever) and get sent directly to the production line)...forces them to purchase a lot of nearby small companies which they reconfigure so that is works directly with the parent company.

But, again, I could be wrong. However, as we both seem to agree, their decision was purely financial.


TF1:

Don't get me wrong. I don't really know what exactly had happened with Mike Gascoyne, so I can't really take anybody's side. All I know was that M.G. didn't like working in Germany, and didn't like the "handcuffs" put on by the Toyota's board of directors.

My best source of information on this matter comes from the May's issue of F1 Racing in which they said that things were not well between Howett and Gascoyne. Apparently they had some issues. Tomita decided to stay away for as long as Toyota was doing relatively well.

However, that all changed after Bahrain. Tomita was not too pleased with the performance of his cars and started putting an enormous amounts of pressure on MG.

MG went back to Cologne to come up with some kind of solution. Upon his return, he went livid once he found out that the bosses had changed Toyota's qualifying strategy. It went so far that MG was yelling at his bosses, a big no-no in Japan. Eventually, they realized that it would be for the best if they went their separate way. That is what I know.

On to the subject of cars...I'm not sure whether you know this, but this never-ending evolution is just one of the beliefs at Toyota. They are proud of the fact that they managed to roll-out three different versions of their cars in less than a year. It's just how things work.

The whole purpose of TF105B was to try out this new zero-keel concept. The car was designed to run on longer-lasting Michelins, and not the disposable Bridgestones. I, personally, think that if you put the TF106 on either last year's or this year's Michelins, that it would work so much better than when on Bridgestones.

[janus]

let my explain the tf105b had two suspension mount point for the v neel and the 0 neel i read it on autosport miky gas.. was going to use a v kneel than toyoa decide that no no no no....ist a 0 knell and no more michelin... 2 mounth before the season starts. and because they where afraid that the 0 knell did´nt work they left de v knell mount point so .."if it goes wrong we cam go back" if you sr the pics you can se da two possible suspension mount point,

only now in the tf106b they remove thart now ist only one...the tf106b has to be the car at the frist race but toyota got scared and did not let mike do is job.