Nothing works for HONDA RACING (formula one team :P )

[modbaraban]

Now that RA107 looks as if they've already hired Mike Coughlan ( ) its performance still varies from bad to very bad. I remember some people were unhappy with the earth paint saying that the black one (pre-season) was way better and even sexy, but I bet D.Hill would be bound to call them Minardi commentating the Hungarian GP. I'm not saying that they (Honda) knew it would be a rolling failure from day one. They always sound SO optimistic about the new car, then about its "B" spec. then they look forward to the next season. It feels like it will never end.


Ok, enough chat from me.

It's not a mistake that I posted this here. I'm really looking forward to people with aero knowledge to reflect on what are the roots of Honda's problems. Nothing seems to work for them.

[vyselegend]

After the dissmal performance from this afternoon, I was on the verge on creating this topic. Thank you modbaraban.

When it became obvious RA107 was a horrible failure, at the begining of the season, I remember Nick Fry was asked to justify how their new car could be outperformed by SA's updated RA106.

He had to admit the car was a disaster while cornering at medium and high speed, balance was unstable during braking, and generally the car lacked consistance, behaving differently from a lap to another in similar conditions (note that Renault described the same first and last problems with their car, and they have a common point with Honda:confessed wind tunnel problems -i.e on both side datas from testing didn't correspond with the tunnel's ones)

But there was another thing Fry aknowleged. Apparently the dissentions between Geoff Willis and Honda's japanese heads revolved about Willis being critisized for his conservative approach, while Honda were very attached to their "philosophy of innovation". (it's probably a lot more complicated but that's what I understood at that time from the team reports and Fry's interviews. I'll try to document this post later with links, but it is possible you find those declarations here in Principessa's news from begining of season)

As you know Willis was fired, and Fry inherited the hard task: incarnate the "philosophy of innovation" dear to Honda.. The RA107 was then built around this philosophy, taking risks to try and find the audacious bit that can make the difference. I think in clear they didn't "evolve" a working concept (RA106), but rather choose to built a brand new package based on (not necessary tested) theories, even maybe "borrowed" ones... (Mac Laren obvious inspiration).

In the end, audacity didn't pay at all, the team seems to struggle even to understand how their car really behave and how to make it a little more driveable (remember bunny hears).

Like modbaraban, I'd be very happy to read insights from aero people, because it seems to worsen races after races, the relative performance is sinking at the same rythm than their desperate developpement...
Today the car was lapping in the 1'23 when Spykers were on 1'21.

[Ciwai]

I recall reading similar comments in regards to willis's conservativism, which was something I agreed with. They seemed to lack any noticable development under his watch, often testing components that never were utilized--but they have been even more lagard in this regard this season. I thought they would really up the pace of development, but aside from the more undercut sidepods introduced at monaco, and the three tiered front wing at hungary there hasn't been anything else of note; and certainly not any of the type of sophisticated detail tweaks seen on the top teams.

[modbaraban]

(note that Renault described the same first and last problems with their car, and they have a common point with Honda:confessed wind tunnel problems -i.e on both side datas from testing didn't correspond with the tunnel's ones)

Since you mentioned the wind tunnels I couldn't keep from posting this one about the accident with the full-scale car (!), not a model, in the wind tunnel.
(photographed from F1Racing mag (rus) (august 2006):

That's how RA106 was launched (literally)

Didn't Briatore blame the tire change for all their troubles?

I think in clear they didn't "evolve" a working concept (RA106), but rather choose to built a brand new package based on (not necessary tested) theories, even maybe "borrowed" ones... (Mac Laren obvious inspiration).

Can't see anything that looks like McLaren on this picture:


RA107 isn't that much different from:


RA106.

Slightly thinner and lower nose, probably shortened sidepods, same ears, front wing too... No evolution I'm afraid

...but then came the Fryker... Fry car that is Looks like their biggest innovation since the introduction of zero-keel.

Button said he'll leave the sport if he won't start wining next year, and it looks like they really look forward to the next season. But how on myearthdream they plan to build a competitive car when they can't find what's so seriously wrong with this one?

[m3_lover]

I think SS_collins can help this out...I do remember a great article acouple of months ago that explained what changes were made to Honda's car last year at the start of the second half of the season.

[Sawtooth-spike]

didnt David Richards lose his job for alot less?

It was really funny durring the ITV f1 Comentary, Damon hill said some thing like "Yeah the problem with he honda is the aero. Mechanically they are fine", i dont think that statement is quite true, after Honda admited there was a problem with there front suspension and they did not know what it is.

does anybody know if yesterday honda made a new record, "most expensive car to finsh last"?

[countersteer]

I "know" that this can't happen these days. Of course, I never thought I'd see a modern F1 car being tested with yarn tufts either.

Every time I hear of a chassis that is inconsistent and unpredictable, it's because the stiffness... specifically the twisting stiffness... is not what it should be.

This was the case with Rahal's CART chassis (they nicknamed it "Sybil" because of its mulitple personalities. Also with Penske's last Champ Car chassis, Panoz's last LMP sportscar, one of the Lola iterations, and heck, even Rossi's MotoGP bike at the beginning of last year.

Did Honda somehow lose the translation form screen (FESA) and the fab shop?

Just my $0.02...

[Carlos]

Countersteer. I think your onto something here. The Honda chassis could very well lack torsional rigidity, as did one of the versions of the BAR Honda. A vague notion occured to me as a possibility, but your long list of examples of 'flexi-flyers" cyrstalizes the idea.

A late Welcome to the Forum ... though I notice you've been a member since Spring.

[tuj]

I think Honda's problem may be the lack of 'efficient' down-force. It seemed to me at Hungary that they brought a high down-force setup, but it created too much drag. The also seem to have brake feel and bias issues.

The chassis issue is interesting. You do not always want to have the stiffest chassis either, it has to be stiff in the right directions. On the GP bikes, they will often reduce stiffness to give better feel; the frame essentially acts as a mini-suspension. I imagine to some extent that's happening on the F1 chassis.

I wonder if they are running a significantly different suspension setup. Does anyone know?

[PNSD]

Funny how at Jerez, a pretty fast track with fast corners, the new updates performed quite well, infact very well.

And yet get to the track they are designed to work at and suddenly Honda are slower than Sypker.

[Belatti]

I can´t remember such a failure, maybe Ferrari in 1992, but they even had a podium with Alesi.

Only thing Honda can do now is start from the scratch with all new personnel, maybe they should put all japanese engineers, this guys always have high tech innovative solutions... who knows?!?!

[Carlos]

tuj - Welcome to the forum, hope you will post often. When the RA107 was introduced at the begining of the season; Honda talked about new front suspension ... but then most teams did. You are right; Honda has revised the front suspension. The link below specs new front suspension at the French GP on a revision ... the RA107B. I agree with a little flex in a motorcycle racing frame ... when cornering; bent over at a severe angle - a lateral flex in the chassis ... but not at the steering head. Would it be best at the middle of the frame? Surely not at the swingarm pivot point? I think F1 chassis are a little different. The less lateral/torsional flex the better as the geometry of 4 wheels is more complicated than two wheels plus no lean angles ... they corner pretty flat with the really stiff suspension.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_RA107

EDIT - I think motorcycle frame design is another of the black arts - half science and half magic - I will never understand!

[megz]

Ive noticed that the car looks inexplecibly like the 2004 BARHonda car.... Bar the thin nose.
The Honda engine is probably pretty strong there didnt seem to be a problem last year. Im keen to blame it on their ugly aero package

[Tom]

G'day Megz and welcome to THE forum.
You're right about the engine, its always been quite a good unit without too many failures, but I'm not satisfied its all down to the aero. I often wonder if the aerodynamics of a car are overplayed and they are not so important as we suggest. After all if you have a bad chassis with a stunning aero package the car may be like an arrow but like an Arrows under braking. However if you have a great chassis and poor aero you've still got a good start and the car will always retain some of its driveability.

Its often been said that the biggest gain for a car comes in the tyres and the way the car uses them, perhaps this is Hondas problem, like Renaults, and they just can't get the grip in the right places because the tyres aren't reacting with the road as well as they could.

[mx_tifoso]

Its often been said that the biggest gain for a car comes in the tyres and the way the car uses them, perhaps this is Hondas problem, like Renaults, and they just can't get the grip in the right places because the tyres aren't reacting with the road as well as they could.

Similar to a problem Renault had earlier in the season; the Honda chassis was not able to generate sufficient heat into the tires within a certain amount of time necessary.

Even with a great chassis that handles marvelously, if you cannot use the tires appropriately, it wont do you much good. Too bad Honda are spending so many resources on salvaging this season with the RA107, only six more races to go.

Like I said before, what Honda seem to be doing is not repairing or fixing the situation, but merely managing damage control. Hopefully next season will bear better results, their drivers seem to be up to the challenge. Although one of their current drivers might need to be replaced much sooner than anticipated.