Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Juzh]

Just as they did from 2014 -> 2015?

[drunkf1fan]

I'm going to laugh if the new engines make the Red Bull more competitive, because they'll have shot themselves in the foot, since Renault is leaving.

Being more competitive than they are today doesn't mean that they won't be more competitive again with Ferrari's engine. Given that Ferrari have been investing heavily and bringing in the right people since the start of 2014 while Renault have been holding back waiting to decide if they go full works or leave F1 I would still put the chances at Ferrari having a significantly stronger engine in 2016 way higher than Renault having an engine equal to or better than Ferrari's engine.

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Some nice pics from F1i http://www.f1i.com/z-flux-rss/exclusif- ... en-images/

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Different positionioning for the MGUH wires for STR

[PlatinumZealot]

Looks the same to me..

[Blackout]

Look closer

2014 PU mock-up
Thanks to https://twitter.com/KevTs

Rear bulkhead and battery recess

[toraabe]

Well http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 40969.html

according to this article they have enough token but no solution. To tokens will be used at austin. Otherwise.. Numerous breakdowns on the test bench.

And serious errors were made..... maybe beginning from scratch....

The planned engine update will not be ready until Austin and no info on how much tokens they are ging to use...

It better be something pretty special or Renault will be wearing a full dozens eggs again!

Special or not, but they will have to use them, or if not used before the last race loose those tokens.

In theory, they are actually depending on Toro Rosso and Red Bull to effectively use them. If those want to give a stomp between the ribs to Renault, they can actually say "nah, we are not going to use them". As long as no engine has been fired up with the used tokens during an official fia sanctioned event, those tokens are considered not to be used.

[r101]

In theory, they are actually depending on Toro Rosso and Red Bull to effectively use them. If those want to give a stomp between the ribs to Renault, they can actually say "nah, we are not going to use them". As long as no engine has been fired up with the used tokens during an official fia sanctioned event, those tokens are considered not to be used.

I think you are wrong, they can run the engine on the test bench to 'confirm' their tokens, does not have to be put in car and used during the race weekend..

EDIT:
Just read on AMuS that Austin 4 token upgrade from Renault is cancelled (2 tokens for Brazil now) and that they are supposedly at a loss on what to use their tokens at all..

More here:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 40969.html

[ReoPTy]

AMuS is full speculating and lies!

in fact renault 12 tokens upgrade is ready for 2 weeks from sources close enough, but the policy toward red bull changed, and to FIA 2016 engine rules change too, it seems that renault prefert to sandbag theirs advancements and wait till last moment to shape it even engine more efficient than uncovering it to red bull for the next GP, especially if they change the baker in 2016 . As the second wish is sorted FIA allows 32 tokens change in 2016, the first is still not, its up to red bull to know what futur engine they want

[dren]

That mock-up 2014 PU looks like it has EGR. Do all the PUs run EGR?

[toraabe]

Who quoted what ?

In theory, they are actually depending on Toro Rosso and Red Bull to effectively use them. If those want to give a stomp between the ribs to Renault, they can actually say "nah, we are not going to use them". As long as no engine has been fired up with the used tokens during an official fia sanctioned event, those tokens are considered not to be used.

I think you are wrong, they can run the engine on the test bench to 'confirm' their tokens, does not have to be put in car and used during the race weekend..

EDIT:
Just read on AMuS that Austin 4 token upgrade from Renault is cancelled (2 tokens for Brazil now) and that they are supposedly at a loss on what to use their tokens at all..

More here:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 40969.html

[djos]

AMuS is full speculating and lies!

in fact renault 12 tokens upgrade is ready for 2 weeks from sources close enough, but the policy toward red bull changed, and to FIA 2016 engine rules change too, it seems that renault prefert to sandbag theirs advancements and wait till last moment to shape it even engine more efficient than uncovering it to red bull for the next GP, especially if they change the baker in 2016 . As the second wish is sorted FIA allows 32 tokens change in 2016, the first is still not, its up to red bull to know what futur engine they want

Show reliable sources or I call b.s.

[Phil]

Stumbled across this interesting article on AMuS, which in many ways is relevant to the RedBull situation:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 40969.html

2015er Motor schlechter als Vorjahresversion

Dann stehen da noch die Egos im Weg. Dietrich Mateschitz und Renault-Konzernchef Carlos Ghosn müssten über den eigenen Schatten springen. Und Red Bull müsste eine weitere Saison ohne echte Siegchancen akzeptieren. Einer der Gründe für die Trennung war, dass Renault technisch keine Perspektiven aufzeigte. Messungen in Montreal haben ergeben: Der diesjährige Motor ist schlechter als die Version von 2014.

Die im Spätsommer 2014 versprochenen sieben Zehntel Zeitgewinn allein vom Motor sind nie auf der Strecke angekommen. Auch weil Renault wegen der vielen Motorschäden zu Saisonbeginn die Leistung reduzieren musste. Auf Mercedes fehlen zwischen 60 und 80 PS. Der Renault V6-Turbo verbraucht mehr Sprit, und er geht häufiger kaputt. Alte Probleme, die längst gelöst schienen, kehrten wieder zurück. Zum Beispiel der Ärger mit den Kolben.

....

Renault wollte sich aber auch nie richtig helfen lassen. Red Bull hatte für knapp zwei Millionen Euro eine Entwicklungshilfe im Zylinderkopf von Ilmor finanziert, die Renault trotz besserer Resultate kurzfristig ablehnte. Es gab im Sommer die Chance, einen Mercedes-Ingenieur abzuwerben. Sie verstrich ungenutzt.

...

Von den 12 Entwicklungs-Token, die Renault in diesem Jahr zustanden wurde bis jetzt noch kein einziger eingelöst. Ein Renault-Ingenieur sagte zu auto motor und sport im Sommer: "Es ist nicht eine Frage der Token, sondern der Umsetzung. Wir haben genug Token, aber keine Lösungen."

Der Versuch, 4 Token in eine Ausbaustufe zu investieren, die zuerst in Sochi, dann in Austin debütieren sollte, brachte bislang ernüchternde Erkenntnisse. Kaum Zeitgewinn, Motorplatzer am Prüfstand und bei weitem nicht die Langlebigkeit, die das Triebwerk bräuchte, um die Rennfreigabe zu bekommen. Eine abgespeckte Version soll jetzt in Brasilien Premiere feiern. Angeblich werden dafür zwei Token eingesetzt. Renault prognostiziert einen Fortschritt von 0,15 Sekunden.

I'm too lazy to do a word by word translation, but will cover some of the points that is covered in the article (Entire article is on Renaults situation):

• 12 tokens are still unused by Renault
• RedBull and TR is worth 50 million to Renault if they continue an engine deal
• Adrian Newey seems to think that the "divorce" between them and Renault has progressed too far to turn back - 'they would need to make big improvements, but no clear direction can be made out on Renaults behalf on how they are going to achieve that'
• "Experts" are unsure if Renaults option to buy Lotus is going to be exercised
• 2015 Renault engine worse than 2014 one - shown by tests conducted in Montreal
• Promises as of Summer 2014 of 7 tenths improvements through the engine alone were never fullfilled, also because Renault, due to many reliability concerns had to decrease power for reliability
• There's a gap of 60-80hp to Mercedes - the Renault has a higher fuel consumption and breaks more easily
• Problems that should have been rectified are back again, namely with the pistons
• Renault never wanted to be helped; Apparently, RedBull was willing to invest 2 million into engine development (Cylinder head) from Ilmor, but was declined by Renault on short-notice
• There was also an opportunity in Summer to poach a Merc engineer but wasn't acted upon
• From the 12 tokens Renault had available this year, none were used so far
• A Renault engineer said in late summer to AMuS that the problem isn't tokens, but that they have no solutions
• The attempt to use 4 tokens for development that should have been debuted in Sochi, then Austin, were thrown overboard because they didn't bring the expected results: Barely improvements, issues on the dyno, and not the longevity that would meet the requirements for a race-spec engine. A half version of those developments will be expected at Brazil now that will use 2 tokens. Renault expects a 0.15s improvement from that engine.
• Many in the paddock question if Renault will be around in 2016. There are speculations that Carlos Ghosn might pull the plug. He may make that decision based on the fact that it's not worth to invest 3 digit million sums when the engineers can't come up with solutions. Lotus would need to go back to Mercedes [for engine supply].

[turbof1]

Aside from the possible impact it has on Red Bull (no, I'm not going to start that discussion again), that's quite heavy for Renault. Even Honda, who is pretty much in the same pit as Renault, is able to crawl a bit higher up given the positive comments from the experimental PU introduced in Sochi.

If that article is true, an 'if' I have to underline since AMuS isn't always a reliable source, it means Renault does not have the know how in-house, nor can generate it in-house. At this point I only see 2 options for them to get out of the mess: quit, or attract the necessary people.

I don't know. When looking at Mercedes and especially Ferrari and Honda, there looks to be a drive, an urge to increase competitiviness (Mercedes has that too, but Ferrari and Honda will be a tad "hungrier" with a target in front of them). I can't sense that at Renault. I'll be the first to say that impression can be wrong, however it's my impression on the matter.

[Phil]

Sorry, perhaps I should have posted it in the Renault engine thread... I just thought it might apply here, given it the whole discussion around RedBull evolves around that situation with the Renault PU.

I can't judge how accurate the article is, but what grabbed me is the realization of lack of development on Renaults behalf in regards to their engine. Ok, so they've been eyeing taking over a team and returning as a factory-team... but those could have two reasons; Either they had a wider plan and want to integrate it with a fully in-house realized car (-> the factory-team car for 2016) and want as many tokens as possible (if they can accumulate them), or indeed, they are finding it hard to come up with possible solutions that will net them the big improvements they need.

Either way, it also highlights that resources and money is only one part of the equation. In such a highly competitive field, know-how and experience is just as important. And time... and that is running out.

Perhaps their plan to aquire Lotus hinges on the fact if they think they can even become competitive on the engine side. If they lack the expertise, what's the point of re-joining as a works-team with the Enstone team to only become a bigger laughing stock?