2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

[Cs98]

As soon as I saw the move I said to my missus "Hamilton will get a penalty for that, even though there is precedent of Leclerc pulling a similar move with no penalty in 2020".

this does not consider if the rules have been amended however. I think both are worthy of a 5 second penalty.

Leclerc got a black and white flag for an incident which resulted in no damage and didn't ruin anyone's race, I don't think they even touched. Hamilton got a 5 second penalty for causing damage and ruining Piastri's race.

They did collide, but thankfully was wheel to wheel.

The outcome should not be considered as part of the punishment. Which is why it's annoying when teammates collide and then nothing happens.

Watch the 2019 incident again, as far as I can tell there is no clear contact.

As far as "the outcome shouldn't matter", I think that's a misunderstanding on your part. The severity of the collision must be taken into account. Every brush up and close call that doesn't result in damage obviously doesn't yield a penalty, these are not big enough collisions to deserve a penalty. But if you hit someone hard enough to take their front wing off, and you are predominantly at fault, that is obviously deserving of a penalty. Leclerc didn't cause any damage, it's not even clear there was contact, the same cannot be said for Lewis.

[SiLo]

Leclerc got a black and white flag for an incident which resulted in no damage and didn't ruin anyone's race, I don't think they even touched. Hamilton got a 5 second penalty for causing damage and ruining Piastri's race.

They did collide, but thankfully was wheel to wheel.

The outcome should not be considered as part of the punishment. Which is why it's annoying when teammates collide and then nothing happens.

Watch the 2019 incident again, as far as I can tell there is no clear contact.

As far as "the outcome shouldn't matter", I think that's a misunderstanding on your part. The severity of the collision must be taken into account. Every brush up and close call that doesn't result in damage obviously doesn't yield a penalty, these are not big enough collisions to deserve a penalty. But if you hit someone hard enough to take their front wing off, and you are predominantly at fault, that is obviously deserving of a penalty. Leclerc didn't cause any damage, it's not even clear there was contact, the same cannot be said for Lewis.

I watched it again and you are correct, for some reason I thought there was also contact.

[Just_a_fan]

Leclerc got a black and white flag for an incident which resulted in no damage and didn't ruin anyone's race, I don't think they even touched. Hamilton got a 5 second penalty for causing damage and ruining Piastri's race.

They did collide, but thankfully was wheel to wheel.

The outcome should not be considered as part of the punishment. Which is why it's annoying when teammates collide and then nothing happens.

Watch the 2019 incident again, as far as I can tell there is no clear contact.

As far as "the outcome shouldn't matter", I think that's a misunderstanding on your part. The severity of the collision must be taken into account. Every brush up and close call that doesn't result in damage obviously doesn't yield a penalty, these are not big enough collisions to deserve a penalty. But if you hit someone hard enough to take their front wing off, and you are predominantly at fault, that is obviously deserving of a penalty. Leclerc didn't cause any damage, it's not even clear there was contact, the same cannot be said for Lewis.

They didn't touch because Hamilton took to the grass to avoid the contact. Had he stayed where he was as Piastri did, there would have been contact and, entirely possibly, one or both of them would have received damage.

If Piastri had taken to the grass as Hamilton did in 2019, would you have been happy with Hamilton just receiving a black and white flag warning?

[AMG.Tzan]

They did collide, but thankfully was wheel to wheel.

The outcome should not be considered as part of the punishment. Which is why it's annoying when teammates collide and then nothing happens.

Watch the 2019 incident again, as far as I can tell there is no clear contact.

As far as "the outcome shouldn't matter", I think that's a misunderstanding on your part. The severity of the collision must be taken into account. Every brush up and close call that doesn't result in damage obviously doesn't yield a penalty, these are not big enough collisions to deserve a penalty. But if you hit someone hard enough to take their front wing off, and you are predominantly at fault, that is obviously deserving of a penalty. Leclerc didn't cause any damage, it's not even clear there was contact, the same cannot be said for Lewis.

They didn't touch because Hamilton took to the grass to avoid the contact. Had he stayed where he was as Piastri did, there would have been contact and, entirely possibly, one or both of them would have received damage.

If Piastri had taken to the grass as Hamilton did in 2019, would you have been happy with Hamilton just receiving a black and white flag warning?

It's so hard for younger generations to understand that the only reason Hamilton never had an accident in similar situations is only because Hamilton himself took avoiding action! For some reason people think that taking avoiding action isn't part of saving your race!

I can name 10 races where Hamilton could have crashed had he not taken avoiding action! Yet people find it odd when Hamilton makes an overtake, the other guy does nothing to avoid contact and they end up crashing!

Same goes for Verstapen in 2021! First corner with Lewis, Lewis closes the door, Max does nothing to avoid contact!
Exact same situation with Sainz yesterday and he nicely takes avoiding action by going on the brakes! Why?

Keeping your race alive isn't only about making clean overtakes! It's also avoiding certain crashes and living to fight another day...

[Cs98]

They did collide, but thankfully was wheel to wheel.

The outcome should not be considered as part of the punishment. Which is why it's annoying when teammates collide and then nothing happens.

Watch the 2019 incident again, as far as I can tell there is no clear contact.

As far as "the outcome shouldn't matter", I think that's a misunderstanding on your part. The severity of the collision must be taken into account. Every brush up and close call that doesn't result in damage obviously doesn't yield a penalty, these are not big enough collisions to deserve a penalty. But if you hit someone hard enough to take their front wing off, and you are predominantly at fault, that is obviously deserving of a penalty. Leclerc didn't cause any damage, it's not even clear there was contact, the same cannot be said for Lewis.

They didn't touch because Hamilton took to the grass to avoid the contact. Had he stayed where he was as Piastri did, there would have been contact and, entirely possibly, one or both of them would have received damage.

If Piastri had taken to the grass as Hamilton did in 2019, would you have been happy with Hamilton just receiving a black and white flag warning?

Yes, provided it wasn't so blatant a squeeze that it proves impossible to control the car for the guy getting squeezed. But if it's just half a wheel on the grass and he keeps going I'm fine with a BW flag.

[Cs98]

Keeping your race alive isn't only about making clean overtakes! It's also avoiding certain crashes and living to fight another day...

I don't disagree. But why can't you see that same logic applies to Lewis and how he chose to complete that overtake by cutting across Piastri? It was a huge risk (and completely unnecessary), and it put him as the responsible party if anything went wrong.

[ringo]

Leclerc got a black and white flag for an incident which resulted in no damage and didn't ruin anyone's race, I don't think they even touched. Hamilton got a 5 second penalty for causing damage and ruining Piastri's race.

They did collide, but thankfully was wheel to wheel.

The outcome should not be considered as part of the punishment. Which is why it's annoying when teammates collide and then nothing happens.

Watch the 2019 incident again, as far as I can tell there is no clear contact.

As far as "the outcome shouldn't matter", I think that's a misunderstanding on your part. The severity of the collision must be taken into account. Every brush up and close call that doesn't result in damage obviously doesn't yield a penalty, these are not big enough collisions to deserve a penalty. But if you hit someone hard enough to take their front wing off, and you are predominantly at fault, that is obviously deserving of a penalty. Leclerc didn't cause any damage, it's not even clear there was contact, the same cannot be said for Lewis.

I think if it was an attempt to gain the lead of the race, there should be more scrutiny. Almost like fouling a striker who if gets past the last defender would surely score a goal. I would say both should be a penalty. Hamilton simply just has reflexes to avoid damaging his car for some strange reason. But if he held his ground like Piastri it would have been a collision.

[ringo]

Keeping your race alive isn't only about making clean overtakes! It's also avoiding certain crashes and living to fight another day...

I don't disagree. But why can't you see that same logic applies to Lewis and how he chose to complete that overtake by cutting across Piastri? It was a huge risk (and completely unnecessary), and it put him as the responsible party if anything went wrong.

I think if we break down the incident. Both Hamilton and Leclerc did the same thing. Line up for entry into the chicane. Both cannot see how close the other driver is along side. So that is their full responsibility and awareness.

The only difference between both incidents is what the car on the outside does, which was outside of Leclerc's control and outside of Lewis' control in each case. So, I believe the same precedent applies as both did the same exact thing, only that in Hamilton's case, the outside car, in his own independence decided not to move. And this is impossible for the guy on the inside to see. It should have been a black and white flag for both, a 5 second penalty for both, as both did the exact same thing. It can even be argued that Leclerc had more intent to block Hamilton.

[Juzh]

Really surprised about Hamilton
Overtake button + double DRS maybe ?
Do you have an onboard footage

https://streamable.com/vqjkx3

Highest speeds of the race:
ham 359 kmh
Per & Gas 356 kmh
Lec 355 kmh

That's the result of various tows and O/T. In the same car driven basically in clean air for much of the race (once Perez got by he was gone), Russell's top speed was only 334.4km/h. Likewise, the high top speeds for some at the end of sector 2 were also thanks to DRS.

Of course, I wasn't trying to imply anything, just some numbers thrown out.

[TFSA]

I think if we break down the incident. Both Hamilton and Leclerc did the same thing. Line up for entry into the chicane. Both cannot see how close the other driver is along side. So that is their full responsibility and awareness.

The only difference between both incidents is what the car on the outside does, which was outside of Leclerc's control and outside of Lewis' control in each case. So, I believe the same precedent applies as both did the same exact thing, only that in Hamilton's case, the outside car, in his own independence decided not to move. And this is impossible for the guy on the inside to see. It should have been a black and white flag for both, a 5 second penalty for both, as both did the exact same thing. It can even be argued that Leclerc had more intent to block Hamilton.

I disagree. You're missing two crucial differences: who the overtaking car was, and whether or not the overtake was successful.

2019: Hamilton attempted an overtake on the outside, but didn't manage to get it done. (outside overtake, unsuccessful)

2023: Hamilton had just overtaken Piastri on the inside. (inside overtake, successful)

It's perfectly reasonable for Leclerc to have missed Hamilton on the outside when lining up for the corner since Hamilton didn't manage to actually overtake. Meanwhile, there's no way Hamilton didn't know Piastri was there on the outside, as he had just passed him on the inside.

To me, that makes the two incidents completely different.

[Spoutnik]

Really surprised about Hamilton
Overtake button + double DRS maybe ?
Do you have an onboard footage

https://streamable.com/vqjkx3

Highest speeds of the race:
ham 359 kmh
Per & Gas 356 kmh
Lec 355 kmh

That's the result of various tows and O/T. In the same car driven basically in clean air for much of the race (once Perez got by he was gone), Russell's top speed was only 334.4km/h. Likewise, the high top speeds for some at the end of sector 2 were also thanks to DRS.

Of course, I wasn't trying to imply anything, just some numbers thrown out.

Thank you !
Interesting line in the Parabolica from Hamilton to keep some clean air on the FW.
I wonder which top speed the Williams could achieve in similar circumstances.

[Farnborough]

I don't disagree. But why can't you see that same logic applies to Lewis and how he chose to complete that overtake by cutting across Piastri? It was a huge risk (and completely unnecessary), and it put him as the responsible party if anything went wrong.

I think if we break down the incident. Both Hamilton and Leclerc did the same thing. Line up for entry into the chicane. Both cannot see how close the other driver is along side. So that is their full responsibility and awareness.

The only difference between both incidents is what the car on the outside does, which was outside of Leclerc's control and outside of Lewis' control in each case. So, I believe the same precedent applies as both did the same exact thing, only that in Hamilton's case, the outside car, in his own independence decided not to move. And this is impossible for the guy on the inside to see. It should have been a black and white flag for both, a 5 second penalty for both, as both did the exact same thing. It can even be argued that Leclerc had more intent to block Hamilton.

I disagree. You're missing a crucial difference: who the overtaking car was.

In 2019, Hamilton was the car behind, attempting an overtake on the outside. It's perfectly reasonable for Leclerc to have missed him on the outside when lining up for the corner since Hamilton didn't manage to overtake him.

Yesterday, however, Hamilton had just overtaken Piastri on the inside. Therefore, there's no way Hamilton didn't know he was there on the outside, as he had just passed him.

I agree with this, its just not good enough from a multi championship winning driver, with all the accolades given about him by his ultimate manager, to then make such a bad job of clearing another driver. He didn't need to go back on that line, had already passed Piastri and no further interaction was necessary. Jinking to make the other driver take his foot out of throttle early should be seen for what it is, amateurish in the extreme, juvenile in expecting experienced observers to take that excuse and faux apology at face value.

An ominously poor trajectory by the MB team, with GR doing more or less the same action in deciding to "take" a penalty for intentionally crossing the chicane and avoiding getting stuck behind another competitor to obstruct HIS race plan.

Is that how they are now planning their races ? Cutting corners and deliberately obstructing other drivers that did nothing wrong, by already accepting they had better chance in being able to mitigate the small penalty in time.

Ominous in the extreme, and should be seen as such. Highly unprofessional.

The evidence against LH is that he is, throughout his career, a very "clean" driver, almost impeccably. If he wants to now convince the public that these mistakes are indeed genuine, that background of extremely low fault rate during very tense racing shows it as fallacy.

They really do need to wake up at MB and act as they always profess to do, with honesty and humility. This level of behavior is particularly poor. Other's will ultimately be the judge of them, not their protestations of innocence.

[dialtone]

I’m with you that it’s LH’s fault but you are taking it way out of proportion. He already said it was his mistake and gave no fault to Piastri and went to apoligize. This issue is done. S*** happens.

That Merc is somewhat taking advantage of the 5s penalty is preposterous. We should have a tin foil hat forum topic. I’m no fan of theirs but c’mon.

[Farnborough]

I’m with you that it’s LH’s fault but you are taking it way out of proportion. He already said it was his mistake and gave no fault to Piastri and went to apoligize. This issue is done. S*** happens.

That Merc is somewhat taking advantage of the 5s penalty is preposterous. We should have a tin foil hat forum topic. I’m no fan of theirs but c’mon.

The words attributed to GR suggest otherwise, either his own view or perhaps that was discussed internally in race strategy meeting, which of course outsiders have no knowledge of.

It's not preposterous in any way, suggest that GR comments are viewed to understand his stance on this. Maybe confined to personal view, of his, but public domain now.

He adds detail, I understood from quotes, in that he feels the first chicane "escape" free pass needs changing to stop the behaviour he just described. That's what I understand from press quotes. Offering something to the contrary on here would maybe refute that.

Looks like they've adopted it as part of normal raceday thinking to me.

[AR3-GP]

That Merc is somewhat taking advantage of the 5s penalty is preposterous. We should have a tin foil hat forum topic. I’m no fan of theirs but c’mon.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/russe ... /10515918/

Russell said he lunged around Ocon and skipped the chicane knowing he could get away with it. He never gave the position back. It was more important to make the undercut work as the time penalty wouldn't hurt so much compared to what he gained.

“And I knew if I fell behind him, my chance to undercut the guys ahead would disappear. So I went in very hot into Turn 1, knowing there was a bit of a risk to miss the corner, and that's what happened.

“In Monza, it's a bit of a shame, because it's always a bit of a ‘get out of jail free’ card with the run-off there. And that gives drivers, especially when you're fighting, the chance to miss the corner. So I'd probably like to see a bit of a change in that corner in the future.”

Russell said he had no regrets about making a risky move that would probably earn a penalty: “I knew that P5 was probably the worst that we could have achieved, considering the gap to the guy in P6.

“So it would have only compromised me if it was a safety car right at the end [and the field bunched up].”

It was quite similar to Sainz's illegal overtake on lap 47 where he lunged Leclerc into the 2nd chicane, skipped it, and kept the position. Except Russell got a penalty and Sainz didn't ( ).