variable valve timing...

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Birel99
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variable valve timing...

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sorry for this, it may sting a little :oops:
why do flames come out from the exhaust under braking or decceleration?
Last edited by Birel99 on 11 Jan 2007, 05:02, edited 1 time in total.

pompelmo
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No idea!

zac510
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This is caused by unburnt fuel catching in the hot exhaust.

There are a number of reasons why unburnt fuel ends up in the exhaust :)

nudge
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always assumed its due to rich mixture on overrun not fully burning the fuel, which then ignites in the exhaust manifold as it meets more air to learn it out enough for combustion.

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Birel99
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i assumed it was unburnt fuel, but why isnt it being burned?
in the renault engine dyno video it showed that under braking a very lean mixture was being. why is that lean mixture not being ignited like normal? and since it was so lean, wouldnt you think that thier would be no exess fuel to spill threw the exhaust...
thanks,

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Birel99
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also can someone please explain how compression works?
im full of dumb questions today... :roll:

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Ciro Pabón
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This is an educated guess, from what I know about injected and carburated cars. I'll follow the "F1Technical forum method": you make a wild guess and some professional reading the forum will be so upset, or will laugh so much, that he will lend a hand...

First: when you close the throttle, the engine manifold vacuum increases. I think this is the same thing that happens when you block the pipe of a vacuum cleaner with your hand, for example.

On carburated cars, like NASCAR (ehem...), the 'idle port', (below the throttle plates), is then subjected to high intake manifold vacuum throwing extra fuel into the combustion chamber.

On some cars, injectors are located between the throttle plate and the intake valve. The intake engine vacuum on deceleration pulls fuel from these injectors and send it to the cylinders. In modern cars the injectors have a tight shut-off on deceleration, specially at normal, highway speeds. I believe F1 cars have the injectors above the throttle plates, so this theory, that explains Montoya's flames, doesn't work in F-1, unless I'm wrong.

Second: I wonder how the spark behaves. I imagine a lower voltage at lower RPMs, at least on the old american cars whose spark timing I've adjusted ;). When you check a spark plug, the spark towards ground seems more brilliant when you accelerate, but I can be imagining things.

So, up to this point, we have an engine that was going at 19.000 rpms when suddenly the entrance is blocked and a high vacuum sucks extra fuel: Birel99 explains that Renault uses a lean mixture in this situation. However, we have a third problem:

Third: The intake/exhaust valves of a high RPM engine have two "valve overlaps": in the first overlap, the intake begins way before TDC and exhaust goes beyond TDC, thus, the engine sucks fuel directly into the exhaust at low RPMs. In the second overlap, the exhaust begins well before BDC and any unburnt fuel can go out. The lower the RPMs, the more deleterious are these two overlaps on the amount of fuel that simply passes through the engine without being touched by the spark. Check at http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm for some cool animations, including the 3D camshaft by Ferrari.

Anyway, what Birel99 wants to know, it's why the fuel does not burn: when you close the throttle the mixture lacks oxygen, and the (weaker?) spark won't be able to ignite it. The fuel won't burn until it gets enough oxygen, at the end of the tail pipe. It's the same trick used by people that throw flames from the mouth.

When you have an engine that works at extremely high RPMs, you have to use a mixture as lean as possible, as Birel99 explains, because that unburnt fuel has effects on the engine: it washes oil from the cylinders (it should cool them, too, probably making even more difficult for the mixture to ignite).

You can buy a "flamethrower kit", in case your engine's miserable cams aren't that race-worthy to spit flames. It completely cuts the spark and ignites the fuel in the pipe with an extra-coil: your car will throw 5 meters flames. As James Bond used to say: "what could go wrong, Q?"

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/car/sema ... 212339.php

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Ciro

bizadfar
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THat lean fuel finds its way into the exhaust outlet, and when the engine finally ignites fuel, the lean fuel is ignited and a small backfire is caused.

This is what i THINK happens. Have really no idea, but you see it mostly on downshifting -> unburnt fuel in the cylinder?

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mep
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Nice explanation Ciro Pabón but I think this
backfires happen not because of the deceleration.
I think they are caused by downshifts.
Thats why some call them downshift backfires.
And I think they also can happen during upshift.
This may have something to do with the fast way F1 cars shift the
gears and is always connected with a special sound.

Live at the track are those things much more impresive.
There is also a special smell noticeable which is caused
in my opinion by the unburned fuel (which doesn't cause backfires).
After the race, the hole car smels a bit after fuel.

But I haven't noticed those backfires in the latest time?

RH1300S
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I think Ciro's explanation is probably about as good as you will get. The only reason flames are connected with downshifts is the deceleration aspect.

My car spits flames (reminder to self move exhaust to front so I can see it too :D).

I can make it happen on a coasting throttle by holding it a tad open when slowing against engine braking - the same happens sometimes on normal hard braking and blipping the throttle to match the gear shifts. My car has fairly wild cams, huge carbs relative to the engine size and a very short exhaust system with practically no silencer - which adds up to an invitation to visibly burn excess fuel. The flames are accompanied by pops and bangs that sound like a small war going on behind me.

All the visual & sound effects being discussed here - and for me it happens in the engine deceleration phase just as Ciro describes.

P.S. - just a thought, heavy engine braking on a fully closed throttle must give the piston crowns a helluva suck. Is that why pistons sometimes fail with the crowns coming off?

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Ciro Pabón
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Well, mep, probably I did not express myself correctly: I did not mean a deceleration of the car, but a deceleration of the engine, as RH1300 states.

You close the entrance of oxygen when you close the throttle. This, plus an "overlapping camshaft" throws unused fuel into the exhaust pipe, even if the engine has mechanisms to minimize that. Again, this is only what I think from my amateur readings and engine repairings.

Here you have a couple of printscreens I got from the link I provided to How Stuff Works. I hope this makes clear that in a race engine you have a huge overlap, where both valves are open:

Standard Camshaft: the overlap is small (red and blue segments of circle on the top)
Image

Performance Camshaft: huge overlap. Both valves are open.
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Ciro

Reca
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BreezyRacer
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Often excess fuel is added to cool the chambers and valves. The othwerwise lean condition can cause problems. Some builders do this more than others. For instance In Winston Cup Roush racing does this more than any other team, and it's for that reason. It doesn't take much fuel, and just to back that up, Roush motors get some of the best mileage numbers of any of the teams too.

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mep
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Ah Ciro Pabón there was indeed a misunderstanding,
I thought you mean deceleration of the car.

Truly the overlapping camshaft produces fire at the exhaust.
I never doubt this.
(This is what I mean by the smel, maybe not all fuel gets burned at the exhaust.)
1)
But the overlapping brings mainly fuel in the exhaust at low revs
and brings little fuel in it.
You can see this in the videos.
The exhaust has a very smal constand blue flame at low revs
and reving up.
At higher revs this flames disappear because the engine is optimated for
high revs and uses the fuel now totally.
You see this very good at the end of the video when the
engine runs at constant revs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDTTcvftInw


This little flames are under normal circumsances almost invisible
and so I thought Birel99 was not asking for them.

Blue flames = little fuel burning with many oxigen.

2)
So now during shifting the big bright flames appear.
They burn much more fuel and sometimes they are yellow.
I would explain this so:
The trottle is closed the driver breaks this will lead in the best case
to smal little flames following the explanaition of
you that the cylinder sucks in mainly fuel
which can't be burned completly and which gets by overlapping into
the exhaust.

So now as the revs drop and the driver shifts a gear down
and the revs go up at once to maybe 19 000.
So now the cylinder sucks much more per second and
because the trottle is closed to stand gas only little oxigen
can enter the cylinder.
So you get a wave of fuel to the exhaust which hits oxigen
at the end and burns in a bright flame somethimes even in a yellow flame.
Yellow flame = less oxigen or to much fuel.
Like on a bunsen burner.

So the big backflames which are visible on TV are caused by
very fast changings of the revs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56zbHewJHJE

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Birel99
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why do the lobes overlap eachother?
what performance gain does this give and why?
thanks