2026 Regs potential delay - Discussion

[Martin Keene]

So why a V10? Would be roughly double the weight of a R4 Turbo...
Futhermore: A proper Hybrid system like the initial KERS has a weight penalty of 30kg and much more power on modern architecture than back then. As seen in Indy car, this improves racing, generates interesting overtaking options. I would always rather sack DRS for an interesting KERS, maybe electronically replicating the necessary Mario Kart feature of it.

Your not asking me, but will swing at an answer...

Why V10? Nostalgia for the previous NA V10. Not that anything is wrong with that. Regarding "only 30kg". If the sport is looking to reduce weight then it all adds up and it all has to be considered for a diet. If we wanted to drop car weight 100kg, then the 30kg is almost 1/3 of that answer. Granted it does provide band-aid for passing difficulty and a small KERS could be part of a future solution.

Richard

Well, the less fancy materials in the 2026 engine add around 15kg on the V6 alone. The same happened on the V8 to V6 change, the ICE simply got heavier even though it was smaller. If you look at the current regs...the increase to a V10 on the same material is simply heavier than all the Hybrid stuff. I would expect a V10 easily crosses 200kg, while the V6 turbo next year has a min weight of 130kg. ES + MGUK is currently at around 40kg...
V10 just does not work without adding substantial weight.

A modern V10 built with the same materials as the V6 would be nowhere near 200kg. BMW's road going S85 V10 was only 240kg and that will have a design life of ~150k miles.

[basti313]

Your not asking me, but will swing at an answer...

Why V10? Nostalgia for the previous NA V10. Not that anything is wrong with that. Regarding "only 30kg". If the sport is looking to reduce weight then it all adds up and it all has to be considered for a diet. If we wanted to drop car weight 100kg, then the 30kg is almost 1/3 of that answer. Granted it does provide band-aid for passing difficulty and a small KERS could be part of a future solution.

Richard

Well, the less fancy materials in the 2026 engine add around 15kg on the V6 alone. The same happened on the V8 to V6 change, the ICE simply got heavier even though it was smaller. If you look at the current regs...the increase to a V10 on the same material is simply heavier than all the Hybrid stuff. I would expect a V10 easily crosses 200kg, while the V6 turbo next year has a min weight of 130kg. ES + MGUK is currently at around 40kg...
V10 just does not work without adding substantial weight.

A modern V10 built with the same materials as the V6 would be nowhere near 200kg. BMW's road going S85 V10 was only 240kg and that will have a design life of ~150k miles.

??? F1 Technical? Just do the math: A F1 Turbo is maybe 10kg, so you end at 120kg. Divide by 6, multiply by 10...where are you?
That not even includes that you need to beef up the machine to go to high revs. You can argue, that I am multiplying the front and back covers, but this is collateral as well as the cam control. Main weight are simply the shafts, cylinders and pistons.

[Martin Keene]

What has a turbo got to do with an NA V10? Also BMW previously built a <90kg V10 for F1, even without the flash materials, there is just no way it is double the weight.

[Holm86]

Well, the less fancy materials in the 2026 engine add around 15kg on the V6 alone. The same happened on the V8 to V6 change, the ICE simply got heavier even though it was smaller. If you look at the current regs...the increase to a V10 on the same material is simply heavier than all the Hybrid stuff. I would expect a V10 easily crosses 200kg, while the V6 turbo next year has a min weight of 130kg. ES + MGUK is currently at around 40kg...
V10 just does not work without adding substantial weight.

A modern V10 built with the same materials as the V6 would be nowhere near 200kg. BMW's road going S85 V10 was only 240kg and that will have a design life of ~150k miles.

??? F1 Technical? Just do the math: A F1 Turbo is maybe 10kg, so you end at 120kg. Divide by 6, multiply by 10...where are you?
That not even includes that you need to beef up the machine to go to high revs. You can argue, that I am multiplying the front and back covers, but this is collateral as well as the cam control. Main weight are simply the shafts, cylinders and pistons.

Your logic is flawed, a turbo engine works with much higher cylinder pressures, and need to be much beefier than a atmospheric engine.
An atmospheric V10 engine would also run aluminium pistons, not steel as in the current V6 engines.

[basti313]

Your logic is flawed, a turbo engine works with much higher cylinder pressures, and need to be much beefier than a atmospheric engine.

How much?
I do not see this as flawed. I also do not see in other series examples where they really beefed up an engine on weight when going to the turbo. I think the lifetime of the current engines plays a much bigger role.
Saying this...where do you think a V10 can go? When started they also had their 120kg in the past albeit fancy materials without limits. AND they lasted one race or were exchanged after Q before 2004. They already had to stop weight development and got a minimum weight for the V8.
Going back to V10 would simply not mean we get 2004 back...but we would get an underdeveloped, not so high reving kit engine with a huge minimal weight and a half season lifetime...maybe I am exaggerating with my 200kg, but it will surely not be 100kg again...no one is interested in investing anything into a naturally aspirated engine...

An atmospheric V10 engine would also run aluminium pistons, not steel as in the current V6 engines.

Well, one of the arguments was to run Al pistons already by 2026 on the turbo. But this was turned down by the teams now running steel. Just because they can, they not necessarily do it.

[mzso]

V10 because to me that was the best sounding engines in F1 ever, and I know a lot of people agree with that.
And contrary to what many people keeps saying, sound IS important in motorsport, and a part of what makes it special.
Back in the day, a V10 at 19.000 rpm was a unique sound to Formula 1, no other racing series used a similar engine.
Today many racing series has R4, V6, V8, Turbo/NA etc.

And creating a high reving, high power naturally aspirated engine is still a great engineering task, that many engineers would love to work on.

Regarding the weight, the last Ferrari V10 from 2005 the Tipo 055 had a weight of 90 kg, and yes a modern V10 would have to be beefier for reliability to survive more that a couple of races, but that should be dooable at much less than the 200 kg you're talking about.

And the hybrid systems doesnt only add weight, they also add bulk, but if they could engineer a tiny electric motor and tiny battery package with around 100 hp, and use it as a push to pass instead of DRS that would be fine with me ...

The hybrid V6 sound is unique to F1. Hell it's more exotic than anything. No-one uses anything like this.
I wouldn't say the V10 sound is unique. Even the Mazda 787B sounds similar when reving high, even though it's completely different technology.

All your arguments are corrupted to server your bias.
For one I don't think NA V10 is much of a challenge for F1 engine makers. They developed it for like two decades. As far as I know the last big innovation was pneumatic valves by the 90s.
As for weight an NA V10 is a poor choice. A smaller, high boost turbo with less then half of the cylinders would be lighter.

How about having a twice (or more) as large fuel tank for the massive efficiency downgrade the V10s would bring?

Should they just sacrifice everything for the V10 sound? Performance, reliability, efficiency, and also weight and size.

I would go with a compact turbo with an MGU-h, very little battery capacity. And in-wheel MGU-K-s replacing rear brakes. (As long as we're staying conservative tech wise)

[SealTheRealDeal]

I really doubt the 2026 regs will scrapped, delayed, or even ended early. They're way to far along at this point and they've attracted three new manufacturers to the sport.

Now for 2031 I hope they change away from the turbo V6, or at least don't prescribe it. Maybe I've been watching too much IMSA, but a more open engine formula that allows for more different sounds on track would be awesome. Like imagine if on the grid there was a mixture of the V10 and V12 noises we fondly remember, as well as some whiny turbos with loud anti-lag pops, and then the Cadillacs sound like this:

That'd be auditory bliss (and it'd probably liberate the calendar from the street track menace).

[mzso]

I really doubt the 2026 regs will scrapped, delayed, or even ended early.

Well, ending it early depends on whatever regulatory power FIA left to itself, which isn't public.
If the power units are massively unpopular next year, I can imagine it being changed by 2029.

[SealTheRealDeal]

I really doubt the 2026 regs will scrapped, delayed, or even ended early.

Well, ending it early depends on whatever regulatory power FIA left to itself, which isn't public.
If the power units are massively unpopular next year, I can imagine it being changed by 2029.

If popularity was the going concern we wouldn't have had the vacuum cleaner engine for 12 years

Maybe if they prove detrimental to the racing or the formula collapses under the economic pinch of a recession they'll change early.