Formula One fatalities.

[timbo]

Motor racing is a dangerous sport no doubt, but if everyone who participates in it is fully aware of the danger they are putting themselves at, why is it any of our concern what they do?

Don't know about you but I don't enjoy watching a driver die. And I've seen Senna's crash on air. And some others.

I sort of equate danger in motorsport to sex. Sure it's fun when one has protection. But when there is no protection, the thrill is so much greater.

So you would have sex with heroin junky prostitute unprotected? Cause that's the real thrill.

You know, people believe in different things and wish for different things. But overall the historical trend is to eliminate risk if possible and make life safer.

[Tim.Wright]

This is an open question for you timbo, or anyone else who wishes to answer. I'm genuinely curious just to see what the responses are.

Why do you or anyone think such a focus on safety is needed? Let me just elaborate a bit further on that question to try and give it some depth. I don't dispute the need for barriers and the like on the sides of circuits, nor do I dispute the need to strengthen up the monocoques, as well as the need to ensure cars do not explode into flames upon impact. But do you ever think that this crusade has gone a bit too far?

Thats a simple one. F1 needs, for commercial reasons, to remain TV friendly to survive. None of the sponsors are interested in seeing people dying in cars or tracks with their names on it. So increasing safety is half of the was F1 is maintaining its "good citizen" standing.

The other half is the whole going green thing. Again, F1 doesn't care about being green. They care about appearing green so people will empty their wallets for them.

This trailer very briefly shows Bernie and Max's opinions that something had to change from the way it was:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHlK2HCh12U[/youtube]

[stefan_]

Joseph "Jo" Schlesser - 07.07.1968, French Grand Prix - Rouen-Les-Essarts

A real Formula One opportunity came for Schlesser in 1968 with Honda. The Honda team had completed an experimental air-cooled Formula One car (dubbed the RA302) which was tested by their works driver John Surtees. Surtees pronounced it as not ready for racing, and a potential deathtrap. Undaunted, with the financial help of Honda France, Honda entered it for the French Grand Prix at Rouen-Les-Essarts. Being the local hero, Schlesser was hired to drive it.

After two laps, the car slid wide at the Six Frères corner and crashed sideways into a bank. The magnesium-bodied Honda and 58 laps worth of fuel ignited instantly, leaving Schlesser no chance of survival. As a result, Honda withdrew from Formula One at the end of the 1968 season after Surtees again refused to drive the car at the Italian race of the same year.

[Shrieker]

Like Morteza, I learned a lot of things I didn't know about before. Thanks to all who contribute. It's incredible how the same stuff had to happen over and over and over again for F1 to reach it's current level of safety. The blood price have been truly paid.

[GitanesBlondes]

Motor racing is a dangerous sport no doubt, but if everyone who participates in it is fully aware of the danger they are putting themselves at, why is it any of our concern what they do?

Don't know about you but I don't enjoy watching a driver die. And I've seen Senna's crash on air. And some others.

I sort of equate danger in motorsport to sex. Sure it's fun when one has protection. But when there is no protection, the thrill is so much greater.

So you would have sex with heroin junky prostitute unprotected? Cause that's the real thrill.

You know, people believe in different things and wish for different things. But overall the historical trend is to eliminate risk if possible and make life safer.

I never said anything about enjoying watching a driver die. But really, part of what made the allure of F1 possible were watching guys rise above such things in order to win races, or even world championships. Graham Hill in 1968 was one of the finest performances one could ever see out of a driver given the circumstances of what he dealt with in April. How we view the myths and legends in F1 are due to them in part being born out of blood and fire so to speak. It's why this current era is never going to be remembered as anything remarkable as the years roll onward.

With that said, one way I would put it to you is, who are we to question the choices any of these men made to go racing even when the end of the line came by way of death in a race car? Consider that up until the moment they died, they were doing something that brought them pleasure, and they were living life as they saw to the fullest. Perhaps we should all be so lucky to die doing something we love. Do I wish they hadn't died? Absolutely, but I also don't lose sleep over it. My philosophical view of it is that things played out as they were supposed to.

I never said anything about sleeping with junkie prostitutes. Perhaps its my fault for not clarifying that I was referencing being with a normal female, not a junkie. But I also wasn't expecting someone to make use of mental gymnastics in the manner you did.

[timbo]

How we view the myths and legends in F1 are due to them in part being born out of blood and fire so to speak. It's why this current era is never going to be remembered as anything remarkable as the years roll onward.

The legends are legends because they are left in the past. They also are legends because of contrast with present. And I also don't think that people would discard years since 1994.

With that said, one way I would put it to you is, who are we to question the choices any of these men made to go racing even when the end of the line came by way of death in a race car?

Were they really given a choice? It is a different thing to choose a safer racing vs no racing. Were safety initiatives ever protested by the drivers? I know some refused to attach seatbelts properly but that was out of notion that seatbelts made it harder to leave the car in case of fire.

Do I wish they hadn't died? Absolutely, but I also don't lose sleep over it. My philosophical view of it is that things played out as they were supposed to.

One can't change the past but learn from it and change future.

I never said anything about sleeping with junkie prostitutes. Perhaps its my fault for not clarifying that I was referencing being with a normal female, not a junkie. But I also wasn't expecting someone to make use of mental gymnastics in the manner you did.

So you too want to minimize risk if possible. Getting virus from a single intercourse with a HIV positive person is not 100% guarantee of getting infection, it's actually pretty low. There are also people who are immune to it. It is always about what degree of risk is acceptable and what you have to do to diminish it.

[xpensive]

Jo Schlesser above reminded me of another magnesium-fire, Piers Courage in Frank Williams' De Tomaso at Zandvoort in 1970;



Wiki:
Following a business arrangement with Alejandro de Tomaso, Williams switched to a newly designed De Tomaso chassis for the 1970 Formula One season. Unfortunately the De Tomaso proved to be overweight and unreliable, and only a third place in the non-championship International Trophy alleviated a poor string of results in the early season. The Dutch Grand Prix seemed to be going slightly better, with Courage qualifying in ninth place around the Zandvoort circuit. Running in the middle of the field, the De Tomaso's front suspension or steering broke on the bump at Tunnel Oost, causing the car to suddenly go straight on instead of finishing the high speed bend. It then rode up an embankment (one of the Zandvoort dunes) and disintegrated, the engine breaking loose from the monocoque upon which it burst into flames (no automatic petrol seals at that time). To lighten the De Tomaso magnesium was used in its chassis and suspension. The magnesium burned so intensely that many nearby trees and bushes were set alight. During the impact one of the front wheels broke off the car and hit Courage's head, tearing away his helmet (both came rolling out of the cloud of dust at the same time). It may safely be assumed that this impact broke Courage's neck or caused fatal head injuries and that he died instantly as a result (compare Mike Spence's accident at Indianapolis in 1968).

[dren]

Anyone know when magnesium was out of use in F1 cars, and was this because of regulations or engineers not using it for safety concerns? I never knew the RA302 was magnesium until now.

[Tommy Cookers]

magnesium banned unless over 3mm thick, ending magnesium monocoques and spaceframes
(maybe for 1971 after the Courage crash or certainly for 1972)

cockpit extinguishers mandated for 1969, also at that time recessed and invertable tank caps (but true dry-breaks for 1973)
bag tanks for 1970 (killing spaceframe and sealed-for-tankage aero type structures as Matra)

and IMO also well earned, banning of chromium plating of steel suspension parts over 45 tsi uts for 1972 (Rindt related ??)

[munudeges]

The advent of 'safety' in Formula 1 has been down to two things, and two things only:

1. Formula 1 on television. Nothing motivated Formula 1 to do anything better than the sight of drivers dying live on camera.

2. Better technology, and in particular carbon fibre - a substance light and strong enough that wasn't a massive fire hazard.

That's it. Anything that comes out of Jackie Stewart, Max Mosley or anyone else's mouth is all chest puffing.

[SectorOne]

I never said anything about enjoying watching a driver die. But really, part of what made the allure of F1 possible were watching guys rise above such things in order to win races, or even world championships. Graham Hill in 1968 was one of the finest performances one could ever see out of a driver given the circumstances of what he dealt with in April. How we view the myths and legends in F1 are due to them in part being born out of blood and fire so to speak. It's why this current era is never going to be remembered as anything remarkable as the years roll onward.

They are racers. Sometimes i think some of you have watched too many movies where it´s all drama, glamorized ---.

they are racers just like the guys we have today in F1. If the rules banned nearly all of the safety features tomorrow.
You think Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton would walk away from the sport? Hell no, they love racing at the highest level possible.

the drivers today are just as, if not even more remarkable in their abilities of taking a Formula 1 car it´s absolute limit.
The only thing you and the old dogs were interested in was the old Gladiator mentality when MMA of today does the job just fine.

[aral]

The advent of 'safety' in Formula 1 has been down to two things, and two things only:

1. Formula 1 on television. Nothing motivated Formula 1 to do anything better than the sight of drivers dying live on camera.

2. Better technology, and in particular carbon fibre - a substance light and strong enough that wasn't a massive fire hazard.

That's it. Anything that comes out of Jackie Stewart, Max Mosley or anyone else's mouth is all chest puffing.

What a comment! I cannot remember any instance of watching a driver die on TV. The closest was Senna, and all we saw was a crash. What do you think that viewers should see? Blood covering the camera lens? The safety campaign came well before TV coverage was so universal, and stewart did in fact spearhead it. I doubt that he did it to try and placate some TV viewers. I don't know how you can call it chest puffing. Stewart saw a lot of his fellow competitors die. And because of him, and the likes of Mosley, racing is far safer and the families of those who compete are not under the constant fear of losing their son/father/husband etc.

[GitanesBlondes]

I never said anything about enjoying watching a driver die. But really, part of what made the allure of F1 possible were watching guys rise above such things in order to win races, or even world championships. Graham Hill in 1968 was one of the finest performances one could ever see out of a driver given the circumstances of what he dealt with in April. How we view the myths and legends in F1 are due to them in part being born out of blood and fire so to speak. It's why this current era is never going to be remembered as anything remarkable as the years roll onward.

They are racers. Sometimes i think some of you have watched too many movies where it´s all drama, glamorized ---.

they are racers just like the guys we have today in F1. If the rules banned nearly all of the safety features tomorrow.
You think Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton would walk away from the sport? Hell no, they love racing at the highest level possible.

the drivers today are just as, if not even more remarkable in their abilities of taking a Formula 1 car it´s absolute limit.
The only thing you and the old dogs were interested in was the old Gladiator mentality when MMA of today does the job just fine.

It is drama. F1 or even motor racing has always been about drama, if it weren't, you wouldn't see F1 today trying to create contrived drama in order to spike ratings. Drama and glamour go hand-in-hand with grand prix racing. That's why I always highly recommend people look at the historical attitudes towards grand prix racing so people don't realize the history of the sport starts with Mosley and Ecclestone. Those two clowns have so many believing the drivel that pours out of their mouths every time they open. Look at how the fans viewed grand prix racing during the pre-war era.

Also FYI, today's formula rarely sees drivers bringing the car to the absolute limit because it is counterproductive currently.

[GitanesBlondes]

The advent of 'safety' in Formula 1 has been down to two things, and two things only:

1. Formula 1 on television. Nothing motivated Formula 1 to do anything better than the sight of drivers dying live on camera.

2. Better technology, and in particular carbon fibre - a substance light and strong enough that wasn't a massive fire hazard.

That's it. Anything that comes out of Jackie Stewart, Max Mosley or anyone else's mouth is all chest puffing.

What a comment! I cannot remember any instance of watching a driver die on TV. The closest was Senna, and all we saw was a crash. What do you think that viewers should see? Blood covering the camera lens? The safety campaign came well before TV coverage was so universal, and stewart did in fact spearhead it. I doubt that he did it to try and placate some TV viewers. I don't know how you can call it chest puffing. Stewart saw a lot of his fellow competitors die. And because of him, and the likes of Mosley, racing is far safer and the families of those who compete are not under the constant fear of losing their son/father/husband etc.

What I will tell you about Stewart is this: Kyalami 1973. That tells you everything about who Jackie Stewart was in a nutshell regarding safety. At least Jackie Ickx never made any bones about his views and did as he spoke.

[kalinka]

Just to contribute with a BBC documentary about "Killer Years" in F1 (56min) :

http://vimeo.com/51735205