2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Bill]

Formu1a Uno reports that Lawson will partner Verstappen next season

Red Bull is negotiating the exit of Perez, who can count on a very significant penalty. Monday shareholder meeting. The other choices have already been made: Lawson would be Verstappen's teammate, Hadjar in Racing Bulls

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I've read the whole article and nowhere is mentioned "Lawson would be Verstappen's teammate, Hadjar in Racing Bulls".

https://autoracer.it/it/lawson-mi-sento ... mi-stimola

vcarb is about developing drivers .are they saying lawson is a developed driver who has done all the necessary donkey work .can he save tires can he manage a race without tangling and navigate his way around traffic ,does he has the pace he was 0.7 tenth behind yuki in vegas.redbull kept throwing drivers at vcarb hoping one of them beat yuki and get promoted .i guess they gave up and they are no pretense .its going to be embarrassing choosing Lawson. The media are selling Lawson as having a higher celling than yuki , but what does that mean and what is based on. its just made up nonsense.no one ever said yuki had a higher celling in his first year even when he had a stellar junior career.

[Sergej]

Car seems a bit better than yesterday, but these conditions are not representative so let's see in quali.

[venkyhere]

Car seems a bit better than yesterday, but these conditions are not representative so let's see in quali.

T5 and the 'hotel complex' in S3 (T12 to T15) are both terrible.

[Cs98]

They've taken a step, but there's still more performance in the car, it still understeers.

[marcel171281]

Hopefully the car improves for tomorrow. The continued unpredictability of the car in terms of how it responds to the base setup implies to me they're still having significant correlation issues between the simulator and track. Maybe not something that bodes amazingly for 2025

Yep. Its a worrying sign for sure. Even Marko saying a few weeks ago about the need for a new wind tunnel to be bought online still a fair way off.

But to wonder if perhaps some of the issues are baked into the car design they now the issue but with budget cap and limited WT time etc they can't just spend their way out of the problem

The problem with the RB20 is quite clear imho. I watch every onboard from every session from Verstappen (yes I'm nuts). The core problem is a baked-in shift in aero balance. So the center of aero balance shifts in such a way that the car is never good in a variety of corners. It is normal for this balance to be more on the nose in slow speed and more on the rear in high speed. With the RB20 this doesn't happen in a correct way, which results in a car that either is very understeered in low to medium speed OR oversteered in the high speed, which is what you really don't want. The car is also very unpredictable like this. Then the second problem, which Verstappen often refers to as design limits on the car, is that the mechanical part of the car doesn't give the freedom to compensate for this behaviour. Which basically means things like suspension geometry or differental options/limitations.

The first problem can't be fix in an instance because of limited wind tunnel time, but also because I assume they have or had correlation issues, which need(ed) to be solved first. It seems they now have an understanding what to do, but it is/won't be fixed on RB20. The mechanical problem probably (front suspension) requires a new chassis design.

BTW, it you watch the onboard of Verstappen, it is not uncommen to change his diff setting multiple times a lap (he used push and pull toggles for this) to compensate for this car behaviour.

[f1isgood]

Hopefully the car improves for tomorrow. The continued unpredictability of the car in terms of how it responds to the base setup implies to me they're still having significant correlation issues between the simulator and track. Maybe not something that bodes amazingly for 2025

Yep. Its a worrying sign for sure. Even Marko saying a few weeks ago about the need for a new wind tunnel to be bought online still a fair way off.

But to wonder if perhaps some of the issues are baked into the car design they now the issue but with budget cap and limited WT time etc they can't just spend their way out of the problem

The problem with the RB20 is quite clear imho. I watch every onboard from every session from Verstappen (yes I'm nuts). The core problem is a baked-in shift in aero balance. So the center of aero balance shifts in such a way that the car is never good in a variety of corners. It is normal for this balance to be more on the nose in slow speed and more on the rear in high speed. With the RB20 this doesn't happen in a correct way, which results in a car that either is very understeered in low to medium speed OR oversteered in the high speed, which is what you really don't want. The car is also very unpredictable like this. Then the second problem, which Verstappen often refers to as design limits on the car, is that the mechanical part of the car doesn't give the freedom to compensate for this behaviour. Which basically means things like suspension geometry or differental options/limitations.

The first problem can't be fix in an instance because of limited wind tunnel time, but also because I assume they have or had correlation issues, which need(ed) to be solved first. It seems they now have an understanding what to do, but it is/won't be fixed on RB20. The mechanical problem probably (front suspension) requires a new chassis design.

BTW, it you watch the onboard of Verstappen, it is not uncommen to change his diff setting multiple times a lap (he used push and pull toggles for this) to compensate for this car behaviour.

I think these problems also become only known when you have to ultimately be on the limit every lap and race -- which has more or less been the case with their car since Miami.

I am not sure what they'll do for 2024 really. McLaren had a similar compromise last year with incredible high speed but not good enough else where. RB probably need to take the step McLaren did with a better compromise overall.

I am not sure how they will carry on with development and simulations if their tools are the issue for RB21. They better know what they are doing or it'll be a long long year. In-season development also needs more criticism and work, especially in this era.

[venkyhere]

The problem with the RB20 is quite clear imho. I watch every onboard from every session from Verstappen (yes I'm nuts). The core problem is a baked-in shift in aero balance. So the center of aero balance shifts in such a way that the car is never good in a variety of corners. It is normal for this balance to be more on the nose in slow speed and more on the rear in high speed. With the RB20 this doesn't happen in a correct way, which results in a car that either is very understeered in low to medium speed OR oversteered in the high speed, which is what you really don't want. The car is also very unpredictable like this.

Flexible front wings are the low-hanging-fruit solution. Deeper solutions might involve redesign of floor.
FW setup such that its oversteer in slow/medium corners and which will flex and backoff at high speeds, shifting the center of pressure to the rear, leading to a bit of understeery balance in high speed corners. Let's see what happens in 2025.

Then the second problem, which Verstappen often refers to as design limits on the car, is that the mechanical part of the car doesn't give the freedom to compensate for this behaviour. Which basically means things like suspension geometry or differental options/limitations.

This, I believe comes from the floor that is ultra sensitive to ride height, enforcing super stiff suspension (especially in the front axle) and super aggressive anti-dive and anti-squat angles for the wishbones. So this 'mechanical grip' aspect can be corrected only if the floor is corrected. Again, 2025 beckons, and I hope they haven't already 'gone the wrong way' with 2025 floor and need to retrace and redevelop

[Vettel165]

I have a good feeling about the next year, they might found the solution right in time this year. Trying to fix the problem. If Max has a car capable of fighting for a podium, all is possible. Also as being third in WCC we have more development resources/time for wind tunnel. But everything after now is a bonus, incredible 4 world titles really. Amazing years to be a Red Bull fan.

[Paa]

I have a good feeling about the next year, they might found the solution right in time this year. Trying to fix the problem. If Max has a car capable of fighting for a podium, all is possible. Also as being third in WCC we have more development resources/time for wind tunnel. But everything after now is a bonus, incredible 4 world titles really. Amazing years to be a Red Bull fan.

As far as I understand the more development time is kind of irrelevant for next season, as it will be mostly dedicated to car 2026.RB21 will be mostly what they patch up until the next two weeks or so, with some small adjustments along the season. But 95% of RB21 is ready. If not then their 2026 project will suffer.

[TNTHead]

The problem with the RB20 is quite clear imho. I watch every onboard from every session from Verstappen (yes I'm nuts). The core problem is a baked-in shift in aero balance. So the center of aero balance shifts in such a way that the car is never good in a variety of corners. It is normal for this balance to be more on the nose in slow speed and more on the rear in high speed. With the RB20 this doesn't happen in a correct way, which results in a car that either is very understeered in low to medium speed OR oversteered in the high speed, which is what you really don't want. The car is also very unpredictable like this. Then the second problem, which Verstappen often refers to as design limits on the car, is that the mechanical part of the car doesn't give the freedom to compensate for this behaviour. Which basically means things like suspension geometry or differental options/limitations.

The first problem can't be fix in an instance because of limited wind tunnel time, but also because I assume they have or had correlation issues, which need(ed) to be solved first. It seems they now have an understanding what to do, but it is/won't be fixed on RB20. The mechanical problem probably (front suspension) requires a new chassis design.

BTW, it you watch the onboard of Verstappen, it is not uncommen to change his diff setting multiple times a lap (he used push and pull toggles for this) to compensate for this car behaviour.

This is an excellent post, I think you nailed it. Helps a lot understanding the design challenges. Thank you.

[marcel171281]

I have a good feeling about the next year, they might found the solution right in time this year. Trying to fix the problem. If Max has a car capable of fighting for a podium, all is possible. Also as being third in WCC we have more development resources/time for wind tunnel. But everything after now is a bonus, incredible 4 world titles really. Amazing years to be a Red Bull fan.

As far as I understand the more development time is kind of irrelevant for next season, as it will be mostly dedicated to car 2026.RB21 will be mostly what they patch up until the next two weeks or so, with some small adjustments along the season. But 95% of RB21 is ready. If not then their 2026 project will suffer.

Correct, Red Bull is still the team, at this very moment, with the least CFD and windtunnel time. Does anyone know when the new time allocations go in? 1th of januari maybe? But yes, that time will most definitely go to RB22.

[Juzh]

P5.. meh, underwhelming.

[f1isgood]

I think a P2 was possible. Not beating McLaren though. Lando was good and 1.22.7 was probably there in the car.

[venkyhere]

I wonder whether the spectacular stuff in the exit of final corner from the first Q3 run might have caused some floor damage

[Vettel165]

Crazy Max in the final corner what a drift. I couldnt care less about today. At least it will be more interesting for tomorrow, a podium could be possible.