Concept power units from 2030

[mzso]

There has been talk of rotary valve engines for a while but not really practical. Was flicking through some vids and these look interesting. Sorry it it is not specific enough, but if there is freedom to develop the ideas F1 would be the ideal place

I think it's better not having any valves.

Freevalve??

Not familiar with that. But there's two stroke, or rotary. (Others?)

[DenBommer]

I think it's better not having any valves.

Freevalve??

Not familiar with that. But there's two stroke, or rotary. (Others?)

It is a technology from Koenigsegg: https://www.freevalve.com/

That was once the proposal to switch to two-stroke engines. Didn’t they also talk about an engine with opposed pistons? This seems heavy to me because you would then need two crankshafts.

[DenBommer]

It actually starts at 46:05.

But what do you think of their opinions? Should motorsport indeed become more technological?

Personally, I think so, but I wouldn’t tie all these innovations to one motorsport. By this, I mean that something like torque vectoring seems more suited for rallying, while active aero is coming to F1 soon. And perhaps later we could even add active suspension there as well.

What do you think?

[SealTheRealDeal]

Unless the 2026 engines are disastrous I doubt they'll be replaced in 2030. I doubt they'll last as long as the current generation of V6s have, but the longevity of the V10 era (6-8 years depending on how you count) or V8 era (8 years) seems more likely. Though they've already lost a manufacturer, Audi still looks iffy in some ways, and Cadillac's engine is a way off in the distance still, so I guess it's still possible that the regs fall on their face and they end up quickly changing.

For the electrical component, well first of all I'd keep some sort of hybrid as that's key to manufacturer interest these days. Now, a major hurdle to electrifying the transportation sector is that modern batteries have pretty poor energy density, a reg-set aimed at this should be. F1's hybrid regs haven't really incentivize a focus on energy density as harvesting, output, and storage are regulated, and the minimum weight and huge size of the cars reduces the incentive to shrink the battery. So let's say, the amount to power stored in the battery is unrestricted, and that power harvested from and discharged to the motor on the rear axel is likewise unrestricted, but the battery (not super capacitor!) is to fit within a reference box of 381x190x192mm (yes, those are the dimensions of a Group Size 49 car battery).

As for the ICE component, I think persisting with electro-fuel development is a positive draw so I'd retain that. I think I'd try to make the engine more road relevant and ideally a configuration which many companies have a good understanding of in racing application. At least I'm not aware of many cars with 1.6L V6s, or many engines with 0.267L cylinders. I do know of plenty of engines with 0.5L cylinders, my car has one So in my mind that means either a 2.0L turbo I4 or a 4.0L NA V8. I'm partial to the V8 because I like noise and V configuration engines are better suited to be stressed members, but both have merit. For race-built turbocharged 2.0L I4s, Nissan, Honda, and Toyota currently have such engines for Super GT (and super formula for the latter two), while BMW, Audi, and Mercedes/HWA have recently built such engines for DTM, as did Mazda for their DPi car, I'm sure there's many more that I just can't recall at the moment. For 4.0L naturally aspirated racing V8s you need to look a bit further back as I think only Judd currently has one on offer, but there were tons of them at one point because the IRL, DTM, and GP2 used that formula, so that's Infinity, GM, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, and Renault/Mechachrome. Additionally, Acura ran such an engine in LMP1, and both AER and Mugen made engines of that specification for privateer LMP1 teams. So there's plenty of companies that can reference their back catalogue when making a new engine for either formula, and either option should easily be good for 700+ HP.

[DenBommer]

Unless the 2026 engines are disastrous I doubt they'll be replaced in 2030. I doubt they'll last as long as the current generation of V6s have, but the longevity of the V10 era (6-8 years depending on how you count) or V8 era (8 years) seems more likely. Though they've already lost a manufacturer, Audi still looks iffy in some ways, and Cadillac's engine is a way off in the distance still, so I guess it's still possible that the regs fall on their face and they end up quickly changing.

For the electrical component, well first of all I'd keep some sort of hybrid as that's key to manufacturer interest these days. Now, a major hurdle to electrifying the transportation sector is that modern batteries have pretty poor energy density, a reg-set aimed at this should be. F1's hybrid regs haven't really incentivize a focus on energy density as harvesting, output, and storage are regulated, and the minimum weight and huge size of the cars reduces the incentive to shrink the battery. So let's say, the amount to power stored in the battery is unrestricted, and that power harvested from and discharged to the motor on the rear axel is likewise unrestricted, but the battery (not super capacitor!) is to fit within a reference box of 381x190x192mm (yes, those are the dimensions of a Group Size 49 car battery).

As for the ICE component, I think persisting with electro-fuel development is a positive draw so I'd retain that. I think I'd try to make the engine more road relevant and ideally a configuration which many companies have a good understanding of in racing application. At least I'm not aware of many cars with 1.6L V6s, or many engines with 0.267L cylinders. I do know of plenty of engines with 0.5L cylinders, my car has one So in my mind that means either a 2.0L turbo I4 or a 4.0L NA V8. I'm partial to the V8 because I like noise and V configuration engines are better suited to be stressed members, but both have merit. For race-built turbocharged 2.0L I4s, Nissan, Honda, and Toyota currently have such engines for Super GT (and super formula for the latter two), while BMW, Audi, and Mercedes/HWA have recently built such engines for DTM, as did Mazda for their DPi car, I'm sure there's many more that I just can't recall at the moment. For 4.0L naturally aspirated racing V8s you need to look a bit further back as I think only Judd currently has one on offer, but there were tons of them at one point because the IRL, DTM, and GP2 used that formula, so that's Infinity, GM, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, and Renault/Mechachrome. Additionally, Acura ran such an engine in LMP1, and both AER and Mugen made engines of that specification for privateer LMP1 teams. So there's plenty of companies that can reference their back catalogue when making a new engine for either formula, and either option should easily be good for 700+ HP.

I personally think that after these regulations, we’ll also move to a 4-cylinder engine. This was originally the plan to introduce at the start of the hybrid era in 2014. However, I would still prefer a V-configuration. If I could choose, I’d go for a V8, whether turbocharged or not. But I fear that won’t happen, mainly for “image” reasons.

On the electrical side, I’d also love to see a front MGU-K. If they really want to be efficient, they could recover a lot of energy via the front axle. I’m also confident that F1 engineers would find a way to make this as compact as possible. I’d aim for a power output of around 200 hp; (and the ICE 900hp) that way, you’d still preserve the character of RWD. I’d let the driver decide when to enable or disable AWD using a DAS-like activation system (pushing or pulling the steering wheel).

[BrunoH]

we dont have to go all crazy and bring back the v10 or v12 ( size etc..)
just go back to the V8 hybrids with a bigger kers.

there is no need to be a big heavy thing, we get the noise, and the push to pass / electrical with the Carbon neutral fuels..
everyone gets what they want!

Also cars go down in size and weight like 100kg less than today and we would all be liking it a lot more!

[DenBommer]

we dont have to go all crazy and bring back the v10 or v12 ( size etc..)
just go back to the V8 hybrids with a bigger kers.

there is no need to be a big heavy thing, we get the noise, and the push to pass / electrical with the Carbon neutral fuels..
everyone gets what they want!

Also cars go down in size and weight like 100kg less than today and we would all be liking it a lot more!

The V8, turbocharged or not?

I also think that technology and nostalgia can go perfectly hand in hand. A simple naturally aspirated engine combined with high-tech electric motors. This way, manufacturers wouldn’t have to focus on the combustion engine but rather on the electric part. And they could then transfer that technology to their road cars.

[wuzak]

we dont have to go all crazy and bring back the v10 or v12 ( size etc..)
just go back to the V8 hybrids with a bigger kers.

there is no need to be a big heavy thing, we get the noise, and the push to pass / electrical with the Carbon neutral fuels..
everyone gets what they want!

Also cars go down in size and weight like 100kg less than today and we would all be liking it a lot more!

The old V8 with the 2026 ERS would reduce the ICE weight by about 30-35kg.

You would save some weight by not having an intercooler, but you would need a bigger radiator and fuel tank.

[wuzak]

If you could make a 1.2l V8 turbo smaller and lighter than the V6, then that might be good.

Alternatively, if they allowed a hot vee for a V6, could they make a better sound with the exhaust layout?

Also, a shorter exhaust pipe.

[DenBommer]

If you could make a 1.2l V8 turbo smaller and lighter than the V6, then that might be good.

Alternatively, if they allowed a hot vee for a V6, could they make a better sound with the exhaust layout?

Also, a shorter exhaust pipe.

Why put it in 8 cylinders when it can also be done in 4?

[BrunoH]

v8 NA, with kers, go from the 6.8sec they had per lap to 8 sec per lap. thats it... battery should even be smaller than before with better performance. the v8 scream and use carbon neutral fuel, cars smaller and over 100kg lighter thats what everyone wants for god sake

[DenBommer]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ben- ... /10697476/

[Ozan]

2 liter V10 + turbo is my dream setup

[Chuckjr]

Gotta side with the standard ICE opinions. Grow the fuel with F1 sponsored agriculture putting jobs into poor economies and selling that kind of green picture. Downsize battery and use it only for reasons like what Newey talks about - smoother shift, better out of slow corners and starts to reach torque curve from low rpm. Downsize the car. Go to 18’ or my god dare to dream 16” wheels. Maybe some kind of push to pass.

[BassVirolla]

Gotta side with the standard ICE opinions. Grow the fuel with F1 sponsored agriculture putting jobs into poor economies and selling that kind of green picture. Downsize battery and use it only for reasons like what Newey talks about - smoother shift, better out of slow corners and starts to reach torque curve from low rpm. Downsize the car. Go to 18’ or my god dare to dream 16” wheels. Maybe some kind of push to pass.

As much as I'd love a formula like that, growing foodstock in poor countries for burning it inside racing engines is as bad as it gets for the agricultural people.

In USSR it didn't go very well when all the food was produced for money, and not to feed the people.